On some MMOs when you create your account at a certain time your born "Lucky". And you automatically and are destined to get certain items. Is Stick online like that? Because it seemed that the accounts i've been on have gotten drops from different boss monsters that the other hasn't at an extremely low level to high level :o.
Nope, no accounts are any more "lucky" than any other.
Quote from: Forum on July 21, 2010, 10:33:12 PM
On some MMOs when you create your account at a certain time your born "Lucky". And you automatically and are destined to get certain items. Is Stick online like that? Because it seemed that the accounts i've been on have gotten drops from different boss monsters that the other hasn't at an extremely low level to high level :o.
This topic should be renamed "Some bullshit I just made up on luck". No game has this stupid ass "luck" thing you made up.
Quote from: JoEL on July 22, 2010, 02:19:45 AM
Quote from: Forum on July 21, 2010, 10:33:12 PM
On some MMOs when you create your account at a certain time your born "Lucky". And you automatically and are destined to get certain items. Is Stick online like that? Because it seemed that the accounts i've been on have gotten drops from different boss monsters that the other hasn't at an extremely low level to high level :o.
This topic should be renamed "Some bullshit I just made up on luck". No game has this stupid ass "luck" thing you made up.
Shut up sir almost every post you make is negative.
It's all random chance, like Meiun said. The only real influence you have over it is how often you kill the monsters to get the drops. The more you kill that certain monster, the better the chance you have to get what you want.
Quote from: Forum on July 22, 2010, 02:28:15 PM
Quote from: JoEL on July 22, 2010, 02:19:45 AM
Quote from: Forum on July 21, 2010, 10:33:12 PM
On some MMOs when you create your account at a certain time your born "Lucky". And you automatically and are destined to get certain items. Is Stick online like that? Because it seemed that the accounts i've been on have gotten drops from different boss monsters that the other hasn't at an extremely low level to high level :o.
This topic should be renamed "Some bullshit I just made up on luck". No game has this stupid ass "luck" thing you made up.
Shut up sir almost every post you make is negative.
Don't feed the fire. JoEL (as well as several other people here, I'm sorry to say) dislikes you, and as such tend to be harsh in a lot of their replies to you. But you usually egg them on.
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:22:45 PM
It's all random chance, like Meiun said. The only real influence you have over it is how often you kill the monsters to get the drops. The more you kill that certain monster, the better the chance you have to get what you want.
Nope, the chance for a monster to drop a specific item never changes.
Quote from: Torch on July 22, 2010, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:22:45 PM
It's all random chance, like Meiun said. The only real influence you have over it is how often you kill the monsters to get the drops. The more you kill that certain monster, the better the chance you have to get what you want.
Nope, the chance for a monster to drop a specific item never changes.
That's not what I meant. I realize the number doesn't change, I'm just saying, you'll have a better chance to get a Spire Dagger from a BA if you kill it 1,000 times versus 100 times.
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:45:13 PM
Quote from: Torch on July 22, 2010, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:22:45 PM
It's all random chance, like Meiun said. The only real influence you have over it is how often you kill the monsters to get the drops. The more you kill that certain monster, the better the chance you have to get what you want.
Nope, the chance for a monster to drop a specific item never changes.
That's not what I meant. I realize the number doesn't change, I'm just saying, you'll have a better chance to get a Spire Dagger from a BA if you kill it 1,000 times versus 100 times.
I have killed a BA 1000 times and I still have the same chance to get a Spire Dagger as someone who has never fought a BA.
Quote from: Torch on July 22, 2010, 03:57:47 PM
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:45:13 PM
Quote from: Torch on July 22, 2010, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:22:45 PM
It's all random chance, like Meiun said. The only real influence you have over it is how often you kill the monsters to get the drops. The more you kill that certain monster, the better the chance you have to get what you want.
Nope, the chance for a monster to drop a specific item never changes.
That's not what I meant. I realize the number doesn't change, I'm just saying, you'll have a better chance to get a Spire Dagger from a BA if you kill it 1,000 times versus 100 times.
I have killed a BA 1000 times and I still have the same chance to get a Spire Dagger as someone who has never fought a BA.
That's true, but do you think someone is going to get a Spire Dagger on their first try? That's very unlikely. Everyone who has gotten a Spire Dagger thus far has fought them lots of times. You're missing my point.
I'm saying that YES, the actual chance of a SD dropping stays the same consistently. But if you kill a BA repeatedly, you'll be much more likely to get an SD later than on your first one.
EDIT: Perhaps I should have said 'more likely' instead of 'better chance' earlier.
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 04:03:16 PM
Quote from: Torch on July 22, 2010, 03:57:47 PM
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:45:13 PM
Quote from: Torch on July 22, 2010, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:22:45 PM
It's all random chance, like Meiun said. The only real influence you have over it is how often you kill the monsters to get the drops. The more you kill that certain monster, the better the chance you have to get what you want.
Nope, the chance for a monster to drop a specific item never changes.
That's not what I meant. I realize the number doesn't change, I'm just saying, you'll have a better chance to get a Spire Dagger from a BA if you kill it 1,000 times versus 100 times.
I have killed a BA 1000 times and I still have the same chance to get a Spire Dagger as someone who has never fought a BA.
That's true, but do you think someone is going to get a Spire Dagger on their first try? That's very unlikely. Everyone who has gotten a Spire Dagger thus far has fought them lots of times. You're missing my point.
It has Happened before, and yeah the person that dose have more BA kills is "More Likely" to get a good drop, but it has happened before when one "Lucky" player comes along and gets 2 or 3 hits on their first BA and gets a spire dagger. When you have that outcome, I don't think you can fully come to the conclusion that there is no "Luck"
~Looperpuck
I love it when people fondle words for the sake of fondling words...haha.
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on July 22, 2010, 04:31:25 PM
I love it when people fondle words for the sake of fondling words...haha.
I just love fondling in general.
Quote from: Torch on July 22, 2010, 03:57:47 PM
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:45:13 PM
Quote from: Torch on July 22, 2010, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: Mystery on July 22, 2010, 03:22:45 PM
It's all random chance, like Meiun said. The only real influence you have over it is how often you kill the monsters to get the drops. The more you kill that certain monster, the better the chance you have to get what you want.
Nope, the chance for a monster to drop a specific item never changes.
That's not what I meant. I realize the number doesn't change, I'm just saying, you'll have a better chance to get a Spire Dagger from a BA if you kill it 1,000 times versus 100 times.
I have killed a BA 1000 times and I still have the same chance to get a Spire Dagger as someone who has never fought a BA.
Seriously? You know he's talking about theoretical probability on multiple rolls, and you're just trying to be difficult.
The chances of rolling a 6 on a 6-sider on your first roll and on your 1000th roll are exactly the same, YES. But, the theoretical probability of NOT rolling a 6 in ANY of the previous 999 rolls is ASTRONOMICALLY low, while the chances of not rolling a 6 on the FIRST roll is 5/6.
EDIT: Also, Forum, your claim is crap; I have never heard of a single MMO that has EVER used a system like that.
Quote from: Chaos on July 22, 2010, 06:08:10 PM
Seriously? You know he's talking about theoretical probability on multiple rolls, and you're just trying to be difficult.
The chances of rolling a 6 on a 6-sider on your first roll and on your 1000th roll are exactly the same, YES. But, the theoretical probability of NOT rolling a 6 in ANY of the previous 999 rolls is ASTRONOMICALLY low, while the chances of not rolling a 6 on the FIRST roll is 5/6.
Well explained, my friend. ;)
I want to know what MMOs Forum is referring to that uses that Luck system... so that I can never play them... ever.
I kinda like the idea of it, but it would get bad really quickly seeing as people would actually wait and find out what time gives you the most 'luck'.
Though, like most people said, I don't know of any game in any genre/whatever that does this.
Quote from: Infection on July 22, 2010, 09:19:58 PM
Though, like most people said, I don't know of any game in any genre/whatever that does this.
That's because there aren't any.
Quote from: Forum on July 22, 2010, 02:28:15 PM
Quote from: JoEL on July 22, 2010, 02:19:45 AM
Quote from: Forum on July 21, 2010, 10:33:12 PM
On some MMOs when you create your account at a certain time your born "Lucky". And you automatically and are destined to get certain items. Is Stick online like that? Because it seemed that the accounts i've been on have gotten drops from different boss monsters that the other hasn't at an extremely low level to high level :o.
This topic should be renamed "Some bullshit I just made up on luck". No game has this stupid ass "luck" thing you made up.
Shut up sir almost every post you make is negative.
That was negative? Your parents must shelter you a lot. I guess you aren't allowed to go out in public.
Ontopic:
I have the same request as lingus.
Quote from: Infection on July 22, 2010, 09:19:58 PM
I kinda like the idea of it, but it would get bad really quickly seeing as people would actually wait and find out what time gives you the most 'luck'.
Though, like most people said, I don't know of any game in any genre/whatever that does this.
That's not the only reason why it would get bad. You would have certain people with a definite advantage over other people. Certain people would literally have a better chance at getting items. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The point of a game like this is BALANCE. This would acheive the exact opposite of balance.
Quote from: Lingus on July 23, 2010, 12:03:04 PM
Quote from: Infection on July 22, 2010, 09:19:58 PM
I kinda like the idea of it, but it would get bad really quickly seeing as people would actually wait and find out what time gives you the most 'luck'.
Though, like most people said, I don't know of any game in any genre/whatever that does this.
That's not the only reason why it would get bad. You would have certain people with a definite advantage over other people. Certain people would literally have a better chance at getting items. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The point of a game like this is BALANCE. This would acheive the exact opposite of balance.
Well the reason I would argue against this is because other people would have other advantages then others, for example: (I'm using Stick-Online as a example)
Say I joined during the months of July-September, I would have a certain extra drop percentage for the BA.
But you on the other hand joined during the months April-June, then you would have a extra drop percentage for the DS, and so on and on.
And this would be for the entire calender for each boss, ect.
But, some bosses give better drops then others, so its still un-fair in a way. The way I just explained above would probably be the 'fairest' way.
I still don't think it should/ or have been put it any game at all. Just a interesting concept though.
Quote from: Infection on July 23, 2010, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: Lingus on July 23, 2010, 12:03:04 PM
Quote from: Infection on July 22, 2010, 09:19:58 PM
I kinda like the idea of it, but it would get bad really quickly seeing as people would actually wait and find out what time gives you the most 'luck'.
Though, like most people said, I don't know of any game in any genre/whatever that does this.
That's not the only reason why it would get bad. You would have certain people with a definite advantage over other people. Certain people would literally have a better chance at getting items. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The point of a game like this is BALANCE. This would acheive the exact opposite of balance.
Well the reason I would argue against this is because other people would have other advantages then others, for example: (I'm using Stick-Online as a example)
Say I joined during the months of July-September, I would have a certain extra drop percentage for the BA.
But you on the other hand joined during the months April-June, then you would have a extra drop percentage for the DS, and so on and on.
And this would be for the entire calender for each boss, ect.
But, some bosses give better drops then others, so its still un-fair in a way. The way I just explained above would probably be the 'fairest' way.
I still don't think it should/ or have been put it any game at all. Just a interesting concept though.
Well those examples don't exactly depict the currently obscure system forum has made up which has came into discussion...Gradual/Relative luck is a horrible idea though. It leeches some excitement and obviously practicality from a random drop system. Without going any further into this obscure and somewhat idiotic concept...I will just simply say this sort of system never has been used by any commercial or mildly popular game...and furthermore never will be used by any sort of successful game. So this topic is essentially is a dead fish that for whatever reason thinks it's alive, only to be consumed by a whale...and after a day or so a dried up whale turd. This topic is a whale turd. Whale turd topic is turdy.
I just got a confirm from rhampton and the game was a Nintendo DS game with wi-fi called Fire Emblem that usesd some sort of Random Number Generator..
Quote from: Forum on July 23, 2010, 07:30:19 PM
I just got a confirm from rhampton and the game was a Nintendo DS game with wi-fi called Fire Emblem that usesd some sort of Random Number Generator..
*facepalm*
That's...that isn't even...
THAT'S NOT AN MMO.
Quote from: Chaos on July 23, 2010, 10:39:08 PM
Quote from: Forum on July 23, 2010, 07:30:19 PM
I just got a confirm from rhampton and the game was a Nintendo DS game with wi-fi called Fire Emblem that usesd some sort of Random Number Generator..
*facepalm*
That's...that isn't even...
THAT'S NOT AN MMO.
Ya i had thought it was an MMO but then i found out it was a DS game..
Not to mention RNG's are what are used in nearly every game ever. There are ways to abuse RNG's in some older, console games mind you. I remember having to abuse it in ff8, because I could re-load and the npc's will still have the same bloody cards and rules! Had to walk around a bunch, do shit, kill stuff, to get the RNG to be more random.
Quote from: Forum on July 23, 2010, 07:30:19 PM
I just got a confirm from rhampton and the game was a Nintendo DS game with wi-fi called Fire Emblem that usesd some sort of Random Number Generator..
Quote from: Forum
"On some MMOs when you create your account at a certain time your born "Lucky"."
Since when is Fire Emblem for DS "some MMOs"?
Also a Random Number Generator is just what it sounds like, something that generates a random number. Pretty much every game has one and it has nothing to do with being "born lucky". I'd be willing to bet that your shitty concept isn't even IN Fire Emblem for DS.
I'm not siding on any ones side or anything but I wanted to point out that game makers pseudo random number generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator) which is a Linear Congruential Generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_congruential_generator) is not true random and just looks like it. Please keep reading.
I'm assuming Meiun is using it (which i believe he is) game makers random. Depending on ware Meiun pulls his entropy to make the key he feeds into the Linear Congruential Generator its possible that some computers are "luckyer" than others. Notice how I said PC, unless he pulls data from accounts for his key you all are right that all accounts will be the same. If he uses personnel PC constants or time or both its possible that some players may have more of an advantage than others when it comes to "luck" because this algorithms is not that good and the keys are too simulator.
There are more complex algorithms that still are not true random but are a lot better. If Meiun uses this with a lot of good entropy sources (like user input timing, the OS's entropy resources, timing threads, ect) and a good stream cipher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_cipher) like RC4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC4) (and that he using it the right way) it will be way more "fair" then the system he is using now. As I said I'm assuming he using game maker's random.
This is something I hope gets into Stick Online 3.
If anything I hope this post can further educate you on the world of "random". :)
Now that is better evidence.
Quote from: ARTgames on July 24, 2010, 11:18:06 AM
I'm not siding on any ones side or anything but I wanted to point out that game makers pseudo random number generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator) which is a Linear Congruential Generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_congruential_generator) is not true random and just looks like it. Please keep reading.
I'm assuming Meiun is using it (which i believe he is) game makers random. Depending on ware Meiun pulls his entropy to make the key he feeds into the Linear Congruential Generator its possible that some computers are "luckyer" than others. Notice how I said PC, unless he pulls data from accounts for his key you all are right that all accounts will be the same. If he uses personnel PC constants or time or both its possible that some players may have more of an advantage than others when it comes to "luck" because this algorithms is not that good and the keys are too simulator.
There are more complex algorithms that still are not true random but are a lot better. If Meiun uses this with a lot of good entropy sources (like user input timing, the OS's entropy resources, timing threads, ect) and a good stream cipher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_cipher) like RC4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC4) (and that he using it the right way) it will be way more "fair" then the system he is using now. As I said I'm assuming he using game maker's random.
This is something I hope gets into Stick Online 3.
If anything I hope this post can further educate you on the world of "random". :)
But that still doesn't make any one person, PC, account, time, etc any more likely to get an item drop. It just makes item drops more easy to predict than a true random system (although, it would probably still be impossible to predict). The number generated is still pretty much random (hence, psuedo-random).
Anyways, what I'm familiar with is using the milliseconds or some other number for the exact time that the generator is being run. Not a specific constant number that was grabbed at some time in the past such as the date of the account creation. Every time the RNG is run, it's going to be a different number. Which is why the milliseconds is good to use I guess, because each time it is run it's going to most likely be different from the time before unless it is done within millisecond accuracy.
Not necessarily true. One persons computers conditions may give him a better chance at drops, based on what the flawed RPG makers RNG is pulling from.
Well we don't know ware Meiun is getting his salt or even what he is really using. I'm amusing stuff that I think may be true that will make it PC dependent which might explain why it seems some accounts are "luckyer" than others. We are just guessing. We are assuming a lot.
But I'm sure you'll agree that that last paragraph would be nice add-on to stick online 3. :D Its free and not that hard to implement to the point ware its good.
Hmm, I would think that it is more likely based on the server, not each client. If you give the client the responsibility of generating the random number (or choosing the seed) it could be abused. I would also think that it is seeded only once, not per client.
One of my teachers claimed that generating a random number on a computer is based on time and computers can never "randomly" generate a number, there is ALWAYS a pattern. One of the examples she gave us was when people came home from work to play these certain games with "random" events/drops or whatever at around the exact same time, every night. A pattern within the game would form, it'd feel as if the game was repeating its self.
I think this is a pretty interesting story and theory. If the drop chances in S.O are based on random number generating (which we all know they are) then maybe there is a specific time when our "drop chance" is at its best.
Just something to think about, it sounds very probable to me.
CONSPIRACY, discuss.
If it's based on time, it's probably based on time in milliseconds. Because of this, it would be impossible to aim for a specific time. If it's based on minutes however, you could possibly do so and get a group of people in the same "lucky-slot".
Well if the story is true, it'd have to depend in the whole time, hours, minutes, seconds and milliseconds.
That's what "based on time in milliseconds" means, heh.
For anybody interested:
Kill a DS at exactly 12:03.97pm, you will get a double drop of dragoon and inferno sword.
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on July 26, 2010, 10:22:22 AM
For anybody interested:
Kill a DS at exactly 12:03.97pm, you will get a double drop of dragoon and inferno sword.
Your watch was off, it's actually 12:03.969PM to be exactly precise. You can't round when it comes down to such fine precisions!
Quote from: Scotty on July 26, 2010, 10:27:23 AM
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on July 26, 2010, 10:22:22 AM
For anybody interested:
Kill a DS at exactly 12:03.97pm, you will get a double drop of dragoon and inferno sword.
Your watch was off, it's actually 12:03.969PM to be exactly precise. You can't round when it comes down to such fine precisions!
Oh damn, good save.
Quote from: JoEL on July 26, 2010, 02:29:11 AM
Well if the story is true, it'd have to depend in the whole time, hours, minutes, seconds and milliseconds.
This is the point. If it's based on milliseconds at all it is extremely unlikely that the same exact time would hit more than once. Not to mention, I assume if you throw days and years in there you'd never get the same date/time.
We don't even know what Meiun is using.
But non the less game maker default seed is the ms timer that goes on at system boot. So every time you rest your PC it also rests the timer to zero. Also you can have variations in the keys and still get similar results when using this simple generator that game maker uses. Even thought this is done at the ms level after a long time the majority of the key will remain the same because only the first few digest are moving. This is ok for a lot of games I just fell for a mmo a "more random" method would be nicer and be more fair, since "better random" stuff is still easy and cheap to use. And if anything it would be more harder to exploit.
Non of this really matters. When there are more players and a trading system I'm sure these items will get to people with work.
Well guys, practically speaking here, I don't think it will ever be possible to program a "true" random generator. But the fact of the matter is the current system works, is well encrypted, and I see no way to exploit it based on tracking patterns due to the fact that would be impossible without extreme decompilation and decryption of the game code...and even if on the hair of a chance it were discovered, it would be nearly impossible to exploit due to the fact that you could go to lengths such as nano seconds or hell, even past that.
Point being as long as the random system appears to be working like it should...there's no real reason to sweat about true random...the fact is, it's a program, not a free thinking individual, machines will never be random. (and I am sure there are many arguments to this point I am making...but I personally believe that you cannot program a machine to be truly random).
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on July 26, 2010, 06:22:14 PM
Well guys, practically speaking here, I don't think it will ever be possible to program a "true" random generator.
http://www.random.org/
Uses atmospheric noise to essentially determine a random number. It's still not
truly random - a certain set of conditions are still determining the numbers, but it's been improved to the point where patterns based on the timecode of the computer are nonexistent.
Of course, I'm not suggesting such a method should be used for S.O.; our current system works fine.
This is getting off topic but I would like to point out some stuff that might not be known. But we have all came to the conclusion that this is an ok how it is and I'm fine with it as I stated in my post before this one.
@Mr Pwnage
Dont assume so much about the system now. Also here is a program I made that makes what can be considered truly random numbers. Or at least really good ones.
This program need to be running near real time or as fast as the PC can provide you. Simply have a loop that keeps inverting a bit and have it check for when a key is pressed. When a key has been pressed put the current stat of your bit into a buffer and do it the processe over. Get as many bits as you want and add them up.
Now this is too slow to use in real time applications like games but is a good sources of entropy to add to a key for a prng.
This is considered physical random (like dice) and is know to be truly random. There is know way some one can press a key constantly at the level it measures, unless you got the slowest PC ever. :P There are other ways to do this like how true crypt makes its salt for its encryption. http://www.truecrypt.org/
@LeGuy
If they are doing what they say they are that site is "truly" random or as random as physics of today have known. That side has nothing to do with any sort of time codes. 0_o I'm not sure why you said that.
But the site does hold the world truly random in italicized because whether or not true random exists is still debated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation#Computational_methods
I think that's called a hardware generator Art. I read about it on here:
http://www.robertnz.net/true_rng.html
And from what I read, it does actually work, if done correctly. Direct quote:
Quote
If you sample the output (not too quickly) you (hope to) get a series of bits which are statistically independent. These can be assembled into bytes, integers or floating point numbers and then, if necessary, into random numbers from other distributions using methods such as those in newran.
It doesn't seem very stable or very dependent. But this sentence worries me a bit to:
Quote
I had experimented with one of these from a Canadian company and found it to produce reasonably satisfactory numbers
Are you talking about the random.org site? Because your right about what its called and does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator (another good article about it.) I just really doght stick online servers will ever have that hardware or implement it. :/
Yeah I also doubt stick online would implement this either, but what you brought up was interesting. From what I understand it'd be way to slow for a game.
I think the real point is that what is currently being used is sufficiently random that it doesn't matter. It doesn't give any one person a better chance over another under almost any circumstance. There is a very slight possibility that someone would be able to exploit it (although, I don't see how) but that possibility is sufficiently low such that there is no reason to believe that anyone has or will take advantage of it.
Is it? Do the people who have the rare items also have other rare items? And how much do they play? I'm sure if we just gather that data it will become clear that it is or is not. I don't know my self because I have no idea what items people have.
The only reason I'm question the random is that I do hear complaints a lot that some people seem to get all the cool stuff. I don't know if that true or just jealous people. Another thing that makes me question then random is and I posted a topic about this experiences and it seem other people were having it is that when you get an item it seems your chance of getting another item is higher from the monster type you got it from. This happen to me while i was hunting cac's. If I ever get a hammer from a cac I seem to get a lot on that day. If I never get anything from it that day I never get anything from the cac.
If it's based on our systems timer, wouldn't someone who just turned on their computer perhaps have better luck than someone whos say, left it on for a month?
As art said, their is some proof to support this. There are a fair number of players I know whom happen to have nearly all the rare items, with only an average amount of effort, or less. Whereas some, Including myself, can't seem to get items no matter how hard they try. And I know I never shut my computer off.
As I said Seifer I dont know if Meiun is even using the system timer. But go ahead and try, it cant hurt anything. Report your finding! :D
Also I would like to know if any one has bin experiencing that thing i posted ware if you kill a certain kind of monster and it drops an item your chaince of getting another item seems mutch higer than that first item you got.
Whatever happened to that word that's bound to land me a bit of back-lash in this conversation: coincidence.
Quote from: Scotty on July 28, 2010, 04:15:09 PM
coincidence.
Art... I'm going to agree with Scotty here. It is very likely that it's all coincidental. That's really how random chances tend to work anyways. Sometimes you're "on" other times not. You'll hear gamblers talk about that. And they're rolling dice and playing on extremely advanced machines. I really don't think you can use that kind of evidence as a basis.
In any case, how would using the system timer affect the chance? I'm seriously not seeing this the way you guys are seeing this. How does having the seed being a lower number imply that they will have a better chance? I'm not entirely sure that's how these algorithms work.
We have always come to the conclusion that it's just coincidence. We are trying to deduce if their is more to it than that.
That's fair. I just kind of think you guys are spinning your wheels a bit without some more knowledge regarding exactly how SO generates random numbers. Without knowing the method, all we're doing is speculating. And if it comes down to that, the most likely explanation to any inconsistencies is coincidence.
But yea, if Meiun were to explain how the random numbers are generated, and something in that method shows some kind of bias, I would be willing to accept that. Aside from that, everything that has been posted that I have read regarding these RNG methods seems to show that even the simple methods are suitable for video games even if they have some very slight bias. We wouldn't be seeing those biases in the quantities that SO produces (even in the tens of thousands of drops that happen).
Quote from: Seifer on July 28, 2010, 04:55:59 PM
We have always come to the conclusion that it's just coincidence. We are trying to deduce if their is more to it than that.
Same here. Does any one have any feedback on 2ed part of my post.
Wow... I can't help but feel a little responsible for this thread's creation by stating that the game fire emblem shadow dragon generates it's RNGs based on the time your game starts playing.
Alright, lemme clarify what I meant when I said that. And let me reassure you that Fire emblem is the ONLY game I know for sure does this. I can say that much with certainty.
Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon for the DS has a rather interesting method of generating the random numbers used to determine the outcome of certain random events in the game. Lets say you turn on your DS or DSi, right? Okay when you tap "Start Game" to start playing whatever game is in your DS slot, the game, Fire Emblem shadow dragon will check the date and time. Based on that it will generate 8 numbers. Those numbers are then used to temporarily influence random events.
Let me see if I can make some sort of example. Think of those numbers like bullets loaded in a gun, once they are used it cannot be used again. When the game runs out of this "ammo" it'll behave much like any other game, consistent random % yatta yatta yatta.
The numbers generated are the same for every DS system, the only thing that determines it is the date and time down to the second (not millisecond, if my memory is correct, the intervals of time checked do not go beyond the second.)
With that said, if the same two people started playing their game with identical dates and times the outcome of certain random events remain the same. The time does NOT continue to be checked as you play. It is only checked at the start and once the numbers are generated it's the end of that.
People have in fact used this to their advantage. Expirienting with the clock to figure out convinient times to abuse certain random events, such as critical hit rates, but more importantly the stats gained on lvl up as that is determined by randomness and whatnot. And therefore get better stats on lvl up and have better stats than players who did not abuse this, and it is comically referred to as "clock abuse". This can be done repeatedly.
To be honest, this sounds like bulls*** to me, but I have found a couple of forums that have debated this and most of them concluded, plausible and one actually concluded it as confirmed. However, they all seem to agree, that abusing the clock is too painstaking of a process (a process that involves changing your game's date and time and turning off and back on and starting the game as quickly as possible.) to be considered worth the time doing. Though it works, too some extent, it relies entirely on how well your timing is because if you're off by one second, then the numbers generated are different from the time you were shooting for.
I agree, I highly doubt SO does this and from what I read, this method of random event influence was only done by that specific game. There have been times where I speculated that perhaps Game Maker has this method built into unknown to it's users, and as such I beleived that if that were true that would explain some of the drops people tend to get and how some people seem "luckier" because they log in at about the same time each day. But like I said that's just speculation on my part.
If I am the reason this thread was started then please forgive me if it starts a huge controversial debate. I did not mean something like that too happen.
Again what I said applies only to Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon for the DS. Despite the wifi PVP matches it is not an MMORPG. The it would be interesting if the clock could be abused for stick online, I do not see that possibility becoming reality any time soon, and for that matter any RPG I intend to play. Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon is a remake of the very first RPG style game, with lvl ups various recruitible characters and plots determined by who you don't and do recruit. It's a great novelty and for those want to see what started it all, if that's something that interests you I reccomend you play it.
Mr. Wordy and Unneccessarily Pendantic LegendTamer is done sorry I had to post a book of sorts, but I wanted to cover as much as I could and tell yall everything I know about it. So that I could outright clarify and/or make it easier for those of you who want to delve deeper on this subject. (and that's why I'm wordy, I like helping).
You guys are reading WAY too deeply into this. Random number generation is a fairly standard operation in modern day programming, and any possible differences would be minuscule at best. I know you guys want to help, but no need to go seeking issues out of what I can only describe as something close to a conspiracy :P But, if it makes any of you feel any better, drops and other calculations based off randomness/luck are being handled differently in V3 anyways.
Quote from: Meiun on July 29, 2010, 01:50:32 AM
You guys are reading WAY too deeply into this. Random number generation is a fairly standard operation in modern day programming, and any possible differences would be minuscule at best. I know you guys want to help, but no need to go seeking issues out of what I can only describe as something close to a conspiracy :P But, if it makes any of you feel any better, drops and other calculations based off randomness/luck are being handled differently in V3 anyways.
Perhaps an increased chance of a drop as you level higher? xD Although the highest level would have to be next to unlimited :P
I was more talking about if there were an issue with how things are already being done.
Quote from: Meiun on July 29, 2010, 02:20:39 AM
I was more talking about if there were an issue with how things are already being done.
I figured. But it can't hurt to take a shot into the dark every now and then. If theres anything I learn in psychology its that you can learn a lot by a persons response regardless of whether or not the topic is true or not. :P
Quote from: Meiun on July 29, 2010, 01:50:32 AM
You guys are reading WAY too deeply into this. Random number generation is a fairly standard operation in modern day programming, and any possible differences would be minuscule at best. I know you guys want to help, but no need to go seeking issues out of what I can only describe as something close to a conspiracy :P But, if it makes any of you feel any better, drops and other calculations based off randomness/luck are being handled differently in V3 anyways.
I'm fine with that. I think a lot of us said we are ok with how it is now. I kinda was wondering a spectating about it because I was some what interested.
But your all right that SO2 is not broken and hearing the news on SO3 just makes it better. I guess this topic is done. :/