Alright, now people might know I have my problems with the Spire Dagger dropped by BA.
In my view it's clearly overpowered and especially against low agi dudes -without spire- damn unfair.
So now here is what I mean:
The spire drains HP so fast it's incredible, I tested it. Danimal hit me, fully equiped, and tested if he'd
stam on me with spire (because we discussed about it). I used gb and my crown, and when I had about
10 HP left he stammed. I also counted how long he needed to kill me. I counted 4 seconds (I could hit
him 2 times with GS). 4 seconds to drain about 470 HP, in my opinion that's damn overpowered. I
also need to meantion his int was 1 I think.
I know you don't stand still during pvp but I still think it makes clear what I mean.
I'd like your opinions
I think Spire is fine.
The stam use has already been raised once and once is enough.
The only good point you make is that low agi players can't escape its attack but that is your own fault, you made the account the way it is and even if it was before the Spire was release it doesn't matter since any new item added would have benifits to some players and draw-backs for others.
It's all about luck with drops, I can say GB is over-powered since it gives 65hp an 4 str an that makes a hugh difference to players who dont have one such as myself but you cant change it just because its unfair to you as you have to put the effort in to get the good drops and thats it.
Good, I'm glad you made a topic about it. First I'd like to point out that Danimal doesn't even have a spire, lol. Whilst your point is still valid it was more around 7-8 seconds with both of us standing still, and that's not including that I stammed, and as a result leaves me helpless against your attacks. You acknoledge it in your post, that obviously you don't stand still in PvP but I don't feel you see how much of a difference that factor makes. Any spire user will tell you, whether or not they're biased, that the spire is extremely tough to use accurately, and ridiculously stam heavy. This together makes it balanced, IMO. Spire users know the risk of using spire in a fight that they will probably stam. Oponents can easily recognise this due to a sudden decrease in offensive attacks. This is where they are rendered helpless, you can attack with much more powerful weapons, knowing they can't hit back. I have lost many PvP matches due to this, so to me, it's clearly an issue and a definite drawback to the Spire Dagger. In addition, it is a very rare, and powerful weapon it's innevitably going to be a bitch to fight. To further back my case, I very rarely use spire when I PvP because it does take skill to use, and I often miss way too much and get beaten as a result. The specific issue you have is low agi being helpless against it. That is very true, players with low agility are much more prone to the spire's advantages, they're much more easy to hit accurately. However, players are slow, why? Because they have vit or str, which in turn equalises the fight. You get hit more, but you have the vit to survive.
I meant you as player, I think it was on your igumal account.
Well yea let it be 6 seconds... you need like 30 seconds to kill someone with gs if you go thit for hit, without moving. And yes I also know you don't stand still during pvp that's what I meantioned right? But still, during a pvp I hit you once whilst you hit me 2 times until my animation is over (that's another point, spire has like 3 or 4 super fast frames?) plus you can hit me during my cooldown.
Sure some time you are stammed and I have like 50 hp and if I got some hits in you are at like 200? Great. it's still easier for the stammed dude to get a spire hit in once in a while than the dude with 50 hp as he knows he can die any second and needs to heal. And healing 17 stam is also easier than 150 hp.
Quote from: foG on November 17, 2010, 01:58:31 PM
especially against low agi dudes
This is intentional.
QuoteDanimal hit me, fully equiped,
You'll have to be more specific. Does that include his GM helmet?
QuoteI counted 4 seconds (I could hit
him 2 times with GS). 4 seconds to drain about 470 HP
That's why you don't stand still during PVP.
QuoteI also need to meantion his int was 1 I think.
You also need to 'know', not 'I think'.
QuoteI know you don't stand still during pvp but I still think it makes clear what I mean.
Indeed. However, your post is missing some facts that are fairly crucial, namely what Danimal's INT *IS* and what equipment is 'fully equipped'. If he did indeed knock off that much damage without running out of stam on only *1* INT, then I agree, that should probably be changed.
At the same time, I intended the Spire to be powerful, in order to compete against the Inferno Sword and Slasher. Considering how people like to act like INT and AGI is not worth putting points into, it was also my intention to take advantage of their slowness.
The other thing to consider is actual PVP skill, which you didn't take into account at all. Whenever I designed a weapon, and no doubt when Meiun implemented it, it has always been the intention that the player skill take precedence over equipment or stats. If you're up against something, take advantage of its weakness, such as the GS/IS's re-use delay. The question that must be asked is, does the Spire have a weakness?
-It has virtually no re-use delay.
-If what you say is accurate, it has a cheap enough Stam cost to drain or nearly drain a player before stamming out.
-It has fair range.
-It has fast strike animation.
-No mention is made on its damage.
In conclusion: Can we see a weakness here? If not, then something should be changed. I'd appreciate if you could also answer:
Damage per strike, with what DEF and what STR?
What equipment exactly was Danimal using?
What is Danimal's INT?
EDIT:
Quote
But still, during a pvp I hit you once whilst you hit me 2 times until my animation is over (that's another point, spire has like 3 or 4 super fast frames?) plus you can hit me during my cooldown.
Again, intentional. Spire is supposed to counter GS/IS, while Slasher is intended to counter Spire with better range and decent speed. Meanwhile, GS/IS is intended to counter Slasher with power. That's what I had in mind when I made the thing and sent it to Meiun.
To answer your point about stam being easier to get back than HP, I think it's equal. Have you any idea how slow it is to get 17 stam back from 0 in a fight with 1 int? You have to dance around and bluff and pretend that you're going to attack but that's all part of the skill. You can easily see I'm stammed and heal, which in your case builds up HP in no time. Equally eventually I get 17 stamina back.. I hit out and probably miss, like I usually do, then I'm back to square 1 again, and you can once again heal.. being stammed isn't waiting for a few seconds then back to full. It's a very bad position to be in, once you get enough to hit back, you have to really make sure it hits. If it does/doesn't you're still stammed for a long while again. I'd also like to point out that you don't have a spire. How can you possibly judge it fairly? I know you say you don't want one, and would never use it etc.
If it was OP'ed wouldn't ever spire user own you in PvP? They don't. I know for a fact you still win tons of PvPs and having two seperate accounts myself (lucky enough to both have spire) I still can't beat you every time. meaning that it can't be as OP'ed as you say.
Like I said in my post, different weapons benefit different players that's just the way it is.
I know you won tournies to go your items and everyone had a chance to win as well but aside from that, do you think it would be fair on players to use your Crown or LLS as other players don't have them, I don't but no one has complained about that and its the same with Spire, everyone can get it so put the work in an get one then you can use it the same as everyone else.
EDIT: What is that that you would want to change about the Spire, its speed, power, stam use?
I am in complete agreement with FoG despite the masses...and aside from the fact it is numerically broken, it is so glitchy in terms of hitboxes that it just worsens the whole situation. That pure failure of that one particular weapon is a good 80% of why I choose not to play stick online anymore...or at least at a bare minimum only going on for tournys. It's kind of discouraging knowing that all your leveling and years of experience with the game can be soured by one bad egg, but it indeed ticked me off to this degree. Everything about the weapon just spoils the game, and that is my own personal opinion. Haters gonna hate.
@Tyco, it's not about the tourney. Also, I didn't even fight Lucifer.
and @Chaos, all the information we'd have to gather again, because I don't have them in mind. I used GB and my crown and Razor used GB and switched to DKH afterwards. His int was indeed 1, I said 'I think' because I was not too sure whether it was his Razor or igumal account.
And I don't know if Razor will reveal his STR etc..
/edit: Razor's STR is 40 and my def is 29 or 30.
My mistake, I thought you did and for that I apologise.
But anyway how would you like the Spire to be changed, the speed? Stam use? Range? Power? or removed altogether?
EDIT: I think unless you reduce more than one factor its still going to be a very damaging weapon, for example if stam use is increase you can still attack with the same power an speed, same goes for speed it would still attack with the same power an use 17 or so stam. So unless you reduced the speed an power or any combination to change the item it wouldnt be alot different.
If there is such a problem with it just remove it altogether and that will be that.
If that happened I feel sorry for people who have tried there hardest to obtain this item, including myself but I don't want one item getting in the way of people playing Stick Online.
Okay, so, me and foG just tested his previously mentioned example of Razor and him in a hit4hit fight.
Result:
Both using GB, a defence hat and standing still Spire vs GS, foG wins, I stammed very quickly and my int recovery was nowhere near fast enough to finish him. Over the time of my int recovery his GS beat me ending in him having 54 hp left. (which I might add is still about 3 more spire hits..)
Quote from: Tyco-RC on November 17, 2010, 03:12:54 PM
My mistake, I thought you did and for that I apologise.
But anyway how would you like the Spire to be changed, the speed? Stam use? Range? Power? or removed altogether?
Well no offense to Chaos (though I'm sure he didn't put loads of effort, if any at all into a 2 framed sprite consisting of about 20 pixels), but it does look rather horrible and awkward in comparison to the other weapons. It operates in a manner that is completely frustrating and destroys game play when made a factor. I could make a massive list with all of my problems with it but I think Meiun would run out of bandwidth. I think that particular weapon is so broken that I would love more than anything to see it removed completely. Though, I'm sure the people lucky enough to acquire the dagger would be very upset about that...so there should be some sort of reimbursement if this were to ever happen.
and @ Dan:
That's all well and good, but maybe you should test it on those of us who aren't generic enough to load up on vit...you should test some medium vit people, as in about 30....people with very low vit too...with 20 or less. I'm sure you'll find that silly dagger conquers the majority of the masses. If you want a true balance test, find people who have extremely similar or exactly the same stats and work that out.
Well no offense to Chaos (though I'm sure he didn't put loads of effort, if any at all into a 2 framed sprite consisting of about 20 pixels), but it does look rather horrible and awkward in comparison to the other weapons. It operates in a manner that is completely frustrating and destroys game play when made a factor. I could make a massive list with all of my problems with it but I think Meiun would run out of bandwidth. I think that particular weapon is so broken that I would love more than anything to see it removed completely. Though, I'm sure the people lucky enough to acquire the dagger would be very upset about that...so there should be some sort of reimbursement if this were to ever happen.
[/quote]
I like the the idea of an item trade in like everyone who has the Spire can swap it for something else out of a list of carefully selected items by GM's and I for one would then fully support any action taken with the Spire providing whoever has obtained it has something in return but that would be for the GM's to discuss between themselves.
Example Razor& foG
1 spire hit with 40 STR on 29(!) def: 22 DMG
1 GS hit with 25 STR on 25def: 37 DMG
We also tested hit for hit, he stammed when I was at 95 HP and I could keep on hitting him. So he got me down to roughly 50 dmg until I killed him.
Example Lucifer& foG (na hats)
1 spire hit with 40 STR on 21 def: 28dmg
1 GS hit with 25 STR on 13 def: 45 DMG
Hit for hit, he killed me. I got 4 gs hits in. He had 185 HP left.....
Also, there is no weapon in the game that is that much biased. Like it's a low-agility killer! It gives people with arround 15 agility the ultimative way to kill every tank with ease, be it a str or vit tank. And if they face someone with higher agi they just use GS/slasher/IS to kill those. There's no other weapon that is like that, I can't really explain what exactly I mean by that...
Well, I think an opinion from TheGoD that has absolutely no special item is valid (except GB which I got couple days ago - chuffed? yes), right?
Let me start off with I do think that the spire is overpowered, but not ridiculously overpowered unlike that other bitch of an item the Bandit Assassin drops. Even though the drop rate is incredibly low, those who do receive the item suddenly become the best PVP'er out there because of it and that BC. What an ass the BA is, take him away.
The damage does not need changing. But I am jumping miles out of distance and it hits me whether the opponent is lagging or not, it annoys me as it is clearly a powerful weapon. It's intention was to be rare and better than other weapons (otherwise, what's the point of introducting it, right?) but the range is friggen ridiculous. Shorten the range, all I ask.
And someone needs to host a GS tournament. YEAH! Then TG can shine.
well, I agree the spire does ridiculous damage. Even if its stam heavy, someone with more than 7 int can easily eat through anyone out there. But whatever, I can't really complain.
Quote from: Riserva on November 17, 2010, 04:08:34 PM
Well, I think an opinion from TheGoD that has absolutely no special item is valid (except GB which I got couple days ago - chuffed? yes), right?
Let me start off with I do think that the spire is overpowered, but not ridiculously overpowered unlike that other bitch of an item the Bandit Assassin drops.
This is the main problem I have with this topic. Spire Dagger is a good weapon, not QUITE overpowered in my eyes, it's just near the very top of the weapon list in quality. Bandit Cover, on the other hand, IS ridiculously overpowered. BC is a counter to SD in a sense, since it gives you a ridiculously high speed boost without the added jump power(which is arguably better since high jumps give your opponent more time to act), equivalent to +17 AGI, according to Prosper.
Also, AGI and INT were(and still are, to some) as 'throwaway' stats, only necessary for fun past a certain point. SD gives you a very good reason to add AGI, and so does Slasher. GS and IS are an incentive for tanking, due to the tendency for most people to near hit-for-hit completely.
Quote from: ChaosThe question that must be asked is, does the Spire have a weakness?
I can list several cons off the top of my head:
-Incredibly ridiculous stamina usage, meaning anyone with low INT can't use it as well
-High AGIs(or people with BC) become considerably more difficult to hit
-Slasher is a 'counter weapon' to Spire Dagger
-Range is considerably smaller than GS/Slasher/IS range
-Very rare weapon
A very easy way I could see to balance the Spire more is to have the range decreased to that of Katana. Personally, I have very little issue with it now, and what issue I do have with it I have FAR more with its counterpart, the Bandit Cover.
Quote from: Riserva on November 17, 2010, 04:08:34 PM
What an ass the BA is, take him away.
Replace BA with BBB, everyone winrars!
It is definitely an unbalanced weapon. It has a terrible damage/stam ratio and a crazy good damage/second ratio. It should be fixed, but not by decreasing damage/increasing stamina.
If it comes down to damage and stamina, I'd say decrease both but have an overall damage/stam ratio increase.
~Aqua
uhhhhh, well ofc I want to publish my opinion on this topic, too. I have a lot of experience with this weapon now, and I can definitly say, you guys are looking at the wrong place.
A spire is only deadly if a high agi(15+) user with decent str and nice dodging skills manages to aqquire it.
And yes, like seifer said, it is: Slasher > Spire > IS > Slasher
And yeah, here we have the main problem in this complete thread!
didn't you get it?
We are comparing a Great Sword with the spire dagger. Hello? Spire dagger is way more rare and therefor supposed to be stronger. While GS is a A weapon, IS & spire are triple A!
if you have alot of str, the high agi user with the spire wont have either enough str to kill you before you kill him or enough defense to survive enough of your hits.
So the spire is just fine!
Something else i am worrying is the Bandit Cover, Yes guys! It drops more often than dragoon and gives WAY more stat bonuses. Hello?
You can just get a spire and bc and put 14 points, you would normally needed in agi for the spire to be very effective in str to make the spire OP, and there is the point, not the spire is OP, but the str of most peeps with bc!
-> they don't have to put the 14 points in agi, when they can get BC and they still get an ridicolous amount of def for free aswell(4)....
Think of this, I did before posting.
~CherryPie
Quote from: CherryPie on November 17, 2010, 05:24:49 PM
uhhhhh, well ofc I want to publish my opinion on this topic, too. I have a lot of experience with this weapon now, and I can definitly say, you guys are looking at the wrong place.
A spire is only deadly if a high agi(15+) user with decent str and nice dodging skills manages to aqquire it.
And yes, like seifer said, it is: Slasher > Spire > IS > Slasher
And yeah, here we have the main problem in this complete thread!
didn't you get it?
We are comparing a Great Sword with the spire dagger. Hello? Spire dagger is way more rare and therefor supposed to be stronger. While GS is a A weapon, IS & spire are triple A!
if you have alot of str, the high agi user with the spire wont have either enough str to kill you before you kill him or enough defense to survive enough of your hits.
So the spire is just fine!
Something else i am worrying is the Bandit Cover, Yes guys! It drops more often than dragoon and gives WAY more stat bonuses. Hello?
You can just get a spire and bc and put 14 points, you would normally needed in agi for the spire to be very effective in str to make the spire OP, and there is the point, not the spire is OP, but the str of most peeps with bc!
-> they don't have to put the 14 points in agi, when they can get BC and they still get an ridicolous amount of def for free aswell(4)....
Think of this, I did before posting.
~CherryPie
Fully agree with CherryPie on this. Spire Dagger isn't overpowered, Bandit Cover is.
Also, for the purpose of classifying weapons like you said with the As and triple As, it'd be appreciated if more people helped with input HERE. (http://www.stick-online.com/boards/index.php?topic=1523.0)
BC gives +6 agi and +3def not 4. Plus its run bonus.
DH gives +3str +2 agi +2 vit and +5def. Plus its jump bonus.
BC is not over powered it and hardly gives you the value of 14 agi.
And I think you don't like it simply because you don't have it, if you did you would have a completely different take on it.
Quote from: Tyco-RC on November 17, 2010, 06:04:39 PM
BC gives +6 agi and +3def not 4. Plus its run bonus.
It's +4 defence :P
Dont want to argue so it can be 4.
I <3 how people are saying they have gotten pissed off and quit the game over something that I'd be more than happy to take a look at (and potentially change/fix). The problem obviously isn't going to get fixed if it is never brought to my attention (or at least if it's not done so properly).
If there really are problems as fundamental as the weapons hit box being off, I will certainly check that out and try to fix it. While I myself don't have a Spire on my Meiun account to play with, I still somehow would be surprised if there were any huge error in it's hitbox, but I will check it out once I can.
As for balancing issues, I am not saying anything in regards to whether the Spire is over or under powered, that is something I'll need to look into a bit further before making any serious changes to things. However, you guys do realize that most games out there, there are simply some builds/items that have an advantage over others. I know that for a long time with Stick Online, having a high VIT build was simply the the best way to go in terms of PVP, largely because there was no weapon or setup that could counter that too effectively. So if you do have a complaint about the Spire, make sure it isn't purely based off the fact that it is good against you specifically, but rather that it is too good in general.
You should also note that there are some weapons that are simply better than others. I try to make the game revolve around skill much more than your typical MMO, in the sense that gear and stats are definitely not the only factor in who can win. But they definitely are going to end up playing a part, or else whats the point of them? A lot of stuff in the game is intended to have it's place, and perhaps be good at one thing while another item is good at another. But this concept can only go so far before things become stale and boring. To some extent, I feel there still does need to be some stuff that pushes a bit further than simply being "different" yet totally equal.
Lastly, while this statement can only go so far (seeing as this version of the game is clearly never going to reach the state of what I would consider "complete"), my original idea was really to have the bulk of PVP in the game be focused a bit more around group/clan based fighting, as well as it not always happening in the restrictions of an arena ring. This concept could be seen much better in the games original PVP setup of attack anyone you want at any time, anywhere. With this setup, things are much more complex and revolve around many more factors than just comparing player A to player B in a generic and trivial fighting environment. If one player were to find himself up against someone that has any form of advantage over his character, if they coordinate things well he may very well be able to have his clan-mate who is better suited for this situation come in and help as he goes and hides behind a rock or other environmental feature (or something like that). Things were never really intended to be totally cut and dry.
Now, all that being said, I realize that even with all of this stuff considered, it is still totally possible for there to be an item that is simply not balanced/designed well. Ever since I first added the Spire, I was aware that this was really a different kind of item than most of the other high end ones I had added in the past. So I have been a bit iffy and unconfident about its stats all along. It certainly is suppose to be a really great item, as well as one that can be especially effective against slow moving builds. But it definitely was never intended to be the "rape the crap out of everyone weapon." I can't exactly do much about it until my rather frustrating computer situation is resolved, but once it is, I will look into it a bit further.
Edit: I will also take a look at the BC as well, as that seems to be a point of controversy too.
Quote from: Tyco-RC on November 17, 2010, 06:04:39 PM
BC gives +6 agi and +3def not 4. Plus its run bonus.
Again, according to Prosper, the +6 AGI and the run bonus give you an equivalent of 17 AGI with a 6 AGI jump boost. The run boost is massive.
Quote from: Tyco-RC on November 17, 2010, 06:04:39 PM
DH gives +3str +2 agi +2 vit and +5def. Plus its jump bonus.
The thing is, those stats make DH a very good hat, but they aren't all crammed into a single stat.
Think of it this way. Which item would you consider better: the hat that gives +20 STR, or the hat that gives +5 STR, +5 AGI, +5 VIT, and +5 INT? Add this in with the fact small bonuses are worse than major bonuses to stats and you've got a rather large gap.
Also, +17 AGI speed equivalent without all the jump(which, let's face it, is near completely useless in PVP anyway, so it shouldn't really count)+ 4 Defense equals a +21 point boost. That's ridiculous.
DH, if you combine +3 STR, +2 AGI, +2 VIT, and +5 Def, all of which are weaker divided anyway, you get a +12 stat boost. That's very good, not obnoxiously good. If you do the same with DKH, you get a +11 boost, which is better because it all focuses on VIT. There is a large gap between these and the moderate level items, but the gap between BC and everything else is ridiculous.
Quote from: Tyco-RC on November 17, 2010, 06:04:39 PM
BC is not over powered it and hardly gives you the value of 14 agi.
Really? I PVPed Drop and I can tell you that the AGI speed he runs at is pretty close to that of a 20 AGI, if not slightly more. At that speed, my 31 AGI helps, but very very barely. It's MUCH less of a help, all because of a giant boost in one stat. And he has 1 base AGI.
Quote from: Tyco-RC on November 17, 2010, 06:04:39 PM
And I think you don't like it simply because you don't have it, if you did you would have a completely different take on it.
I can say that I would like the BC, but only to use against those who use it to PVP. Anything else I wouldn't want to. And I can say the exact same about those who don't have Spire Dagger, if they got one, they wouldn't complain. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is the problem here. I agree 100% with you when you said this:
Quote from: Tyco-RC on November 17, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
I know you won tournies to go your items and everyone had a chance to win as well but aside from that, do you think it would be fair on players to use your Crown or LLS as other players don't have them, I don't but no one has complained about that and its the same with Spire, everyone can get it so put the work in an get one then you can use it the same as everyone else.
I think that foG just wants Spire Dagger. Spire counters Spire rather well, then you can hit-for-hit and win easily.
However, regarding the BC, I disagree and I think it is overpowered when compared with all of the other hats. If Meiun was to nerf anything, I'd really rather have him nerf Bandit Cover, not Spire Dagger.
With regards to the 'glitch hit box,' there is no 'glitch' about it. The fact that it swings fairly instantly amplifies any lag. Suddenly having 90 ping can still give the impression of a huge miss because the transfer rate doesn't scale with speed.
I do believe that the total speed bonus from the BC is 17. With BC and Spire, Aqua (20 agi) is nearly as fast as a 40 agi account. A big issue is that this rather shatters the point of agility.
~Aqua
Don't forget DKH also gives the equivalent of a massive stat boost. I get +9 def from wearing it. Imagine how much more VIT I would have needed to add to get that much def. If anything, I feel there should also be a hat that gives such a massive advantage to STR. We already have one for AGI and one for Defense, where is the uber-str hat?
In regards to spire, I've never had it in my hands, so I can't say it's balance. But I can say that it has to be in the right hands to abuse it, and the right opponent to use it on. foG, I have 1 agi, and I can still dodge the blasted thing. Just jump a lot, let them waste hits and miss, stam out, than rape them.
Quote from: Aqua on November 17, 2010, 06:34:40 PM
With regards to the 'glitch hit box,' there is no 'glitch' about it. The fact that it swings fairly instantly amplifies any lag. Suddenly having 90 ping can still give the impression of a huge miss because the transfer rate doesn't scale with speed.
I do believe that the total speed bonus from the BC is 17. With BC and Spire, Aqua (20 agi) is nearly as fast as a 40 agi account. A big issue is that this rather shatters the point of agility.
~Aqua
If that's the case, then that strengthens my argument even more, I thought Drop had 6 AGI. Editing previous post.
Drop has or had 1 agility a while back, seeing as I remember him saying he was the first 1 agi to get onto the upper branch alone. I think he still has 1 agi.
~Aqua
Quote from: Aqua on November 17, 2010, 06:45:54 PM
Drop has or had 1 agility a while back, seeing as I remember him saying he was the first 1 agi to get onto the upper branch alone. I think he still has 1 agi.
~Aqua
Pffft, I do it all the time alone!
Quote from: Seifer on November 17, 2010, 06:41:25 PM
Don't forget DKH also gives the equivalent of a massive stat boost. I get +9 def from wearing it. Imagine how much more VIT I would have needed to add to get that much def. If anything, I feel there should also be a hat that gives such a massive advantage to STR. We already have one for AGI and one for Defense, where is the uber-str hat?
(-.-) has it, except that it's not uber at all.
Bandit Cover gives a +21 stat boost equivalent to AGI and Defense.
Dark Knight Helm gives a +11 stat boost equivalent to VIT and Defense, but the Defense boost is so massive(21 VIT would be needed to get the same amount of Defense). It also obsoleted Gaia Crown.
Blade Crown...adds 7 STR?
:-X
After discussing and thinking about it a bit more, I am pretty sure I will be nerfing the Bandit Cover a bit in the next update, just so you are all aware. I still intend for it to be a really great hat, but it was never meant to totally "eliminate" the need for AGI, nor was it meant to do so while simultaneously serving as a top notch defensive hat. I don't plan on totally changing it's purpose or features, just may need to adjust how strongly it does what it does.
Nice.
My only good hat will be down graded, thanks guys......
Quote from: Tyco-RC on November 17, 2010, 07:34:38 PM
Nice.
My only overpowered hat will be down graded for great justice, thanks guys......
Fixed.
EDIT: Also, thanks Meiun. :)
Whatever.. pure envy, nothing more......
If you had it your view would be different....
End of my input since this topic has been sorted.
Envy? As you said in-game, the people complaining didn't have it.
I have it, and it's overpowered. It really devalues agi atm.
~Aqua
foG, I'm sure you have handled yourself fine against spires. I have never seen you have a problem with them since they were first released. But it looked to me that you may have a weakness to slashers much more than spires.
I think spire is fast and could be nerfed as i always lose to spire users although i havn't tried any "jumping" strategys.
But Bandit Cover only gives 15 agility... and with the 1 stat point you already start with 16.. i could see it being reduced to maybe 12/13 and the defense i didn't real care much for as i there is already better defence hats but 4 defence probably could be 3 defence.
Yep. Looks like we'll just keep balancing things until everyone likes everything of it. Sorry Tyco.
The whole BA update really just aggravated me, both with the OP hat and the glitchy weapon. Glad finally some light is being shed upon it. Also, this is not simply because I get my ass-kicked by people who use spire...fact is my builds suck because they are basically just a decent amount of agi with some other variation between the 2 I own. Don't think FoG is just complaining about it cause he is slow, I am actually pretty fast and I find that I take hits from this dagger when I am a good 10 feet away from it on my screen, and the game doesn't appear to be lagging at all. That can only mean the hit boxes are very broken or something....but it definitely frustrates the living shit out of me to take damage from a stub when I am not even within whipping range of that person. Not to mention regarding the BC...I feel no faster than 1 agi people as long as they wear it...something about the hat just makes people so incredibly fast it completely kills the need to even bother with agi. With all do respect, as of current I have the game renamed "Spire Daggers Online" in my steam directory...it's been like that for a couple months.
I really hope some of it is fixed sometime in the near future...that'll be the day.
Quoteas of current I have the game renamed "Spire Daggers Online" in my steam directory]as of current I have the game renamed "Spire Daggers Online" in my steam directory
Jeeze, talk about dramatic ::) The hitbox situation you talk about definitely just sounds like either you or your opponent having super shitty ping. If you simply have a high ping, but one that doesn't fluctuate then you don't exactly jump around and can appear to be moving smoothly, but it just results in things appearing a bit behind for the person.
Either way, I do plan on doing some balancing in the next update on things. But I think some of you may be a bit mislead by simply how bad things are with the Spire. I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that even when fog with a GS vs someone with a spire (forget exactly who, but someone high level and a fairly good pvp build I believe) stood hitting each other as fast as they could without moving, fog was still able to win? To me, that doesn't make the spire sound very over powered at all. Standing still and hitting is about the worst strat you can have with the GS, and the best strat with the Spire, as well as the the fact that the GS is suppose to be worse over all to begin with. Sure the reason why may be due to stamming out, but the high stam cost is intentional with the spire and one of the reasons it is not quite as OP as some of you may believe. Again, i'm not even saying it doesn't need some adjusting, just that I think a few of you might be getting a bit
too carried away o_O
Anyways, I understand why a lot of you would be upset with some of this stuff (particularly the BC), and hope to help make it better as soon as I am able to.
If there's going to be any nerfing done on the spire dagger, then here's my opinion. Reducing the base damage or increasing the stam usage of the spire would be pointless, it would just make the spire dagger more stamina costly than it already was. And I can also confirm that the spire dagger is a hard weapon to use pvp wise. I jumped on Lucifer's account and he jumped on mine and we had a pvp. My celson account has 34 vit. And in my first ever pvp on Lucifer's account using spire, I actually stammed.. Of course with enough practice I would eventually get better aim and more skilled with the weapon (much like Lucifer himself) and would be effective with it, but the fact still remains that it is easy to miss. So as I mentioned earlier. Making the spire dagger more stamina costly is not such a good idea.
What I believe to be the main problem with the spire dagger is it's intense speed. If I'm using a gs and fighting Lucifer. With my 6 + 2 agi he can hit me 2-4 times per GS hit. Two spire dagger hits alone is already enough to compete with my 1 gs hit. Alright so obviously the GS isn't a very good weapon to counter spire. So what is...
Spire Dagger
Slasher
LSS (I've seen fog do it before. He can do 1 LSS hit for there 1 spire hit. And LSS is very strong so it counts)
Stone Hammer (Not to sure, I don't personally have one so I don't know how good it is. But I imagine it would be somewhat similar to the effect of LSS)
So basically weapons that are fast or weapons that have an accurate attack with knock back. The only problem is that all these weapons are rare. So to beat the spire, you gotta be lucky enough to get rare items. I perceive this to be somewhat of a problem.
Anyway. It is of my opinion that the Spire Daggers reload time should be increased. Perhaps to the same reload speed as katana (the spire would still theoretically be faster due to it's quick animation, and the katana reload speed is also pretty quick anyway so it's not to bad). This could somewhat persuade spire dagger players to increase there agility so they can get a quicker reload time and the extra agility speed would help a lot with the new reload time. So in this way they can't just rely on there BC for there speed. They will actually need some decent agility to make proper use of it.
I may not have said what I had said in the way I wanted to say it properly. But I've done the best I can.
I've actually got no problem with balancing the Spire Dagger. Might sound surprising, as I've been a strong supporter of its drastic effect on PvP, and its progress towards making intelligence useful. But my opinion as one of the longest users of the Spire Dagger, and a tournament winner using only this weapon, is it's too powerful. This opinion is born in my belief that SO went in the wrong direction with making the most PvP viable weapons the rarest. As I fight equipped accounts like Fog, Razor, Gufi, Igumal, and DeamonClawz, I see no imbalance. With each of these battles I'm forced to use all of my skill, if I don't I loose, and even if I do, I loose more often than not. However, when I fight accounts that lack any of the best weapons, like Mystery, The God, or Celson, the imbalance is obvious, I do not have to try as hard as I should.
I don't like this leap to rare items, and ever since the new PvP system and its transition to 1v1 fights, that has always been my complaint to the game. This is why I argued for the return of the PvP system, the game was not completely built for 1v1 fights, and some people seem to have forgotten this. I wish every single person in SOV2 had all of the best items, then PvP would always be exciting! This complaint about lacking rare items would be nonexistent, it would purely come down to your skill with each item. Each battle would be reduced to the gritty details of PvP skill and strategy, where I find my true enjoyment of Stick Online.
In terms of what to do with the Spire Dagger, I would agree with Celson, heck the ridiculous cooldown actually makes me miss more than I should. I wouldn't mind it being increased.
@Pwnage
I'm sorry, but that's how it is for everybody. Just to touch on what Meiun said, the average SO player ping is 150-200. Although this ping is not high enough to cause the teleporation effect, your actual location on the other player's screen is a bit behind where you are. I've noticed this has the largest effect when running away in a straight line, and jumping to avoid hits. What I do to avoid this lag problem is avoid running in straight lines, and jump a half second sooner than need be. It can't ever be completely avoidable, that's just how it is, SOV3's server will fix this. This effect has nothing to do with the "hitbox" junk people have complained about with both Slasher and Spire Dagger.
Quote from: Lucifer on November 18, 2010, 09:35:40 AM
I've actually got no problem with balancing the Spire Dagger. Might sound surprising, as I've been a strong supporter of its drastic effect on PvP, and its progress towards making intelligence useful. But my opinion as one of the longest users of the Spire Dagger, and a tournament winner using only this weapon, is it's too powerful. This opinion is born in my belief that SO went in the wrong direction with making the most PvP viable weapons the rarest. As I fight equipped accounts like Fog, Razor, Gufi, Igumal, and DeamonClawz, I see no imbalance. With each of these battles I'm forced to use all of my skill, if I don't I loose, and even if I do, I loose more often than not. However, when I fight accounts that lack any of the best weapons, like Mystery, The God, or Celson, the imbalance is obvious, I do not have to try as hard as I should.
I don't like this leap to rare items, and ever since the new PvP system and its transition to 1v1 fights, that has always been my complaint to the game. This is why I argued for the return of the PvP system, the game was not completely built for 1v1 fights, and some people seem to have forgotten this. I wish every single person in SOV2 had all of the best items, then PvP would always be exciting! This complaint about lacking rare items would be nonexistent, it would purely come down to your skill with each item. Each battle would be reduced to the gritty details of PvP skill and strategy, where I find my true enjoyment of Stick Online.
In terms of what to do with the Spire Dagger, I would agree with Celson, heck the ridiculous cooldown actually makes me miss more than I should. I wouldn't mind it being increased.
@Pwnage
I'm sorry, but that's how it is for everybody. Just to touch on what Meiun said, the average SO player ping is 150-200. Although this ping is not high enough to cause the teleporation effect, your actual location on the other player's screen is a bit behind where you are. I've noticed this has the largest effect when running away in a straight line, and jumping to avoid hits. What I do to avoid this lag problem is avoid running in straight lines, and jump a half second sooner than need be. It can't ever be completely avoidable, that's just how it is, SOV3's server will fix this. This effect has nothing to do with the "hitbox" junk people have complained about with both Slasher and Spire Dagger.
While I enjoy the no cooldown of the weapon allowing me to stam almost instantly. I'm being serious, I enjoy it as it allows me to play for mere split seconds at a time while doing other things such as program. It perfectly fits into my play style. I do think it may need a cooldown increase. I'm not sure about the katanas, but in between what it currently is and the katana seems about right.
Make Slasher more common.
Problem solved?
Quote from: Lucifer on November 18, 2010, 09:35:40 AM
@Pwnage
I'm sorry, but that's how it is for everybody. Just to touch on what Meiun said, the average SO player ping is 150-200. Although this ping is not high enough to cause the teleporation effect, your actual location on the other player's screen is a bit behind where you are. I've noticed this has the largest effect when running away in a straight line, and jumping to avoid hits. What I do to avoid this lag problem is avoid running in straight lines, and jump a half second sooner than need be. It can't ever be completely avoidable, that's just how it is, SOV3's server will fix this. This effect has nothing to do with the "hitbox" junk people have complained about with both Slasher and Spire Dagger.
That's all well and good...but I am almost certain something is wrong with it regardless...frenquently checking my ping, it is almost 99% of the time in the 60s...almost solidly staying at 67. That is a VERY good connection, because I have very good internet. The fact that I am clearly experiencing no lag, and I don't run into this issue with ANY other sort of weapon/monster attack...etc...is why I feel it's the dagger itself that is broken. Not saying your all wrong, but I am still pretty confident it's the dagger. Anyways, I'm glad to see it will be looked at.
@Pwnage
There more than one person involved in a PVP fight... If the other person is lagging it can effect things as well. This is also not an effect that is unique to SO at all, as it can be seen in many games, depending somewhat on the type and structure of course. For the most part though, it tends to be fairly mild under typical circumstances.
I understand you are upset about the Spire, you have made that painfully clear, trust me. But if you expect us to actually listen to you and take you seriously, it helps if you actually listen to what people are telling you too. Also to actually make an attempt to ensure you understand it as well, before you start complaining about it again.
Quote from: Chaos on November 18, 2010, 02:11:31 PM
Make every single very rare top-tier PVP weapon and hat slightly more common.
Problem solved?
Now it is.
Or able to be bought with gold.
Quote from: Chaos on November 18, 2010, 02:11:31 PM
Make Slasher more common.
Problem solved?
Probably won't solve it. Maybe it was just the difference in our builds, but I must of fought gufi 20 times last night and lost every time. He needs two hits on me to my 1 slasher hit. I have 1 agi and no BC. No matter what I do, once I swing, he is able to get a couple hits in, and usually another when I'm trying to get out of spire range again.
Quote from: Seifer on November 18, 2010, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: Chaos on November 18, 2010, 02:11:31 PM
Make Slasher more common.
Problem solved?
Probably won't solve it. Maybe it was just the difference in our builds, but I must of fought gufi 20 times last night and lost every time. He needs two hits on me to my 1 slasher hit. I have 1 agi and no BC. No matter what I do, once I swing, he is able to get a couple hits in, and usually another when I'm trying to get out of spire range again.
Pretty sure this is the problem here, coupled with gufi's incredible skill, dodging, attacking, and BC.
Quote from: Mystery on November 18, 2010, 06:21:36 PM
Pretty sure this is the problem here, coupled with gufi's incredible skill, dodging, attacking, and BC.
I wasn't wearing BC any time during our pvping last night.
It can deffinatly be attributed to his skill. But despite that, even when I was able to effectivly land hits, it would leave me open for a couple hits.
Whilst I mostly agree with foG here (as I hate the fact that it pretty much makes Katana useless IMO) I don't think the regen time has to be made that much longer. When I was on Gufi and Igufed was on Igufed, we stood there both using spire both wearing gb and just hitting and before either of us stammed Igufed won because his agi meant he could hit significantly faster. So if anything I think that it does somehow need to be nerfed and/or a new slightly more common (than slasher) weapon should be added that is a good counter weapon for the spire, maybe a new sort of more powerful whip or something.
Quote from: Matty_Richo on November 18, 2010, 06:56:28 PM
Whilst I mostly agree with foG here (as I hate the fact that it pretty much makes Katana useless IMO) I don't think the regen time has to be made that much longer. When I was on Gufi and Igufed was on Igufed, we stood there both using spire both wearing gb and just hitting and before either of us stammed Igufed won because his agi meant he could hit significantly faster. So if anything I think that it does somehow need to be nerfed and/or a new slightly more common (than slasher) weapon should be added that is a good counter weapon for the spire, maybe a new sort of more powerful whip or something.
That's exactly what Slasher is. The only problem is that it's incredibly rare, rarer than Spire.
Quote from: igufed on November 18, 2010, 06:38:03 PM
Quote from: Mystery on November 18, 2010, 06:21:36 PM
Pretty sure this is the problem here, coupled with gufi's incredible skill, dodging, attacking, and BC.
I wasn't wearing BC any time during our pvping last night.
Really? I must have a bad memory then. :(
Quote from: Mystery on November 18, 2010, 07:17:29 PM
Really? I must have a bad memory then. :(
I meant when Seifer and I were pvping..
I fail to see how Slasher is a counter to Spire.
Quote from: Seifer on November 18, 2010, 07:59:18 PM
I fail to see how Slasher is a counter to Spire.
I beat Lucifer on Razor without using Spire... Maybe you just suck? JK :P
Quote from: Seifer on November 18, 2010, 07:59:18 PM
I fail to see how Slasher is a counter to Spire.
Range, for one.
The spires range is about half that of a slasher in truth. It's very very hard to accurately hit someone at the very end of your hitbox with slasher, usually it's near the end, but your never going to fully utilize it's length. Anyone with 10+ agi will close that gap and hit you 2-3 times before you get away.
I have not used the Spire Dagger, as I do not have one. But this is what I think:
If you work hard to get a weapon, I think you should get a good weapon, not a nerf gun.
I like it the way it is. In my opinion, it is balanced. It's fast and strong, but drains stamina.
And it does not have long range. If you have this weapon, you must have INT, or you are
going to stam in seconds. I think it is actually pretty balanced.
Also, keep in mind that this game isn't actually in development anymore, and just be thankful
that this weapon was even added in the first place.
My biggest complaint would be the slasher. Although insanely rare, it has more range than a whip, pretty
great damage, and it is pretty dang fast.
Just to clear things completely with the BC thing, I did the math for you guys.
Points needed to emulate the effect of..
DKH: 4vit, 7def(= 21vit) = 25vit = 25
DH: 3str, 2agi, 2vit, 5def(=15vit) = 22
BC: ~14agi(speedwise), 4def(=12vit) = 26
(I didn't include the aspect of jump bonuses, because they aren't really useful in pvp.)
Conclusion:
1.) Tweak DH (either +1def or 3 in agi or str to make it able to participate with dkh)
2.) Slightly decrease BC (everyones argueing because of the speed aspect so lower the speed by a lot and slightly give an str bonus or something similiar)
How I would handle it:
DKH (can stay): 4vit,7def
DH (updated): 3str, 2agi, 2vit, 6def /
4str, 4agi, 2vit, 5def
BC (updated): 4str, 9agi(speedwise), 4def /
3str, 9agi(speedwise), 4int 3def
I'd like to hear your opinions :)
Quote from: CherryPie on November 20, 2010, 10:50:58 AM
Just to clear things completely with the BC thing, I did the math for you guys.
Points needed to emulate the effect of..
DKH: 4vit, 7def(= 21vit) = 25vit = 25
DH: 3str, 2agi, 2vit, 5def(=15vit) = 22
BC: ~17agi(speedwise), 4def(=12vit) = 29
(I didn't include the aspect of jump bonuses, because they aren't really useful in pvp.)
Conclusion:
1.) Tweak DH (either +1def or 3 in agi or str to make it able to participate with dkh)
2.) Slightly decrease BC (everyones argueing because of the speed aspect so lower the speed by a lot and slightly give an str bonus or something similiar)
How I would handle it:
DKH (can stay): 4vit,7def
DH (updated): 3str, 2agi, 2vit, 6def /
4str, 4agi, 2vit, 5def
BC (updated): 4str, 9agi(speedwise), 4def /
3str, 9agi(speedwise), 4int 3def
I'd like to hear your opinions :)
See, that's the thing. AGI's only needed effect in PVP is speed, without jump it's arguably better. VIT, on the other hand, while Defense is a major part, HP and HP regen can be even bigger, so you can't put it on a pedestal with speed. Defense may take 3 VIT to increase by 1, but it's lesser when paired with max HP and regeneration. So Defense < Speed when comparing. I count it as a single point.
Also, Dragoon Helmet and Dark Knight Helm are great enough as is, I don't think they need a boost.
Regarding the new BC, that would crush whatever tiny use the Fedora had left. I'd just like a speed nerf from 17 AGI speed boost to 12/13 AGI or so.
What I'd REALLY like is a Fedora update, from +2 STR, +1 VIT, +4 INT, +2 Def, to +4 STR, +4 INT, +4 Def. That'd be a +12 stat boost, on par with DH and DKH as far as boosts go. (Because I used 1 stat point for Fedora regen, 8 INT would be fail if it was changed, and I'm not getting a single stat point reset if it was to be changed. :'()EDIT: Stat boost comparison:
Bandit Cover- 17 AGI speed boost equivalent + 4 Defense = 21 point stat boost
Dragoon Helm- 3 STR + 2 AGI + 2 VIT + 5 Defense = 12 point stat boost
Dark Knight Helm- 4 VIT + 7 Defense = 11 point stat boost
I think DKH and DH are fine the way they are. Saying DKH is better than DH is an incorrect statement. It all depends on your stats. If you got high vitality like fog, then the DKH won't be as useful as the DH could be (due to the fact that DH gives str bonus, and that strength can really help). And my only problem with BC is that it is a bit to fast.
Also you can't really count 1 def = 3 vit. It doesn't work that way. Cause vit also gives the hp bonus.
So...it turns out due to some testing done by me, T-Rok, and Ceroblitz, Spire gives a hidden +3 AGI speed equiv boost. This is why people previously though BC gave +17 speed boost, Spire was equipped. Aqua and Lucifer also said it gave a small speed boost, we just pinpointed it. So it's got a similar boost to Slasher.
Confirming what he said. At first we thought it was +4, but through further tests it was found to be +3. So with Spire+BC equipped I end up with 30 agi speed compared to my normal 13.
wow I never realized that on crappy. Makes sense that spire makes you faster, though. (more than that huge slasher weapon, which should actually make you smaller but anyway..:p)
Okay so 17 agi boost? Every new player knowing that will NEVER EVER have to raise the agi stat again. I mean srsly, most are happy with 10 agi, but now you can have 18 without putting points into it, lol.
The reason people raise agility though is for the jump in order to reach new places. This only gives you speed. So technically, you could create an epic win PVP build based purely off of spire and BC.
Quote from: T-Rok on December 05, 2010, 03:06:56 PM
The reason people raise agility though is for the jump in order to reach new places...
correct me if im wrong but you can go everywhere with frog hat and 1 agi, especially if you equip spire.
Ya cant reach top of the ship, and other places without switching hats.
Quote from: CherryPie on December 05, 2010, 04:36:37 PM
Quote from: T-Rok on December 05, 2010, 03:06:56 PM
The reason people raise agility though is for the jump in order to reach new places...
correct me if im wrong but you can go everywhere with frog hat and 1 agi, especially if you equip spire.
I don't have a frog hat. I'm unlucky enough to have never had one drop D:
Quote from: T-Rok on December 05, 2010, 04:43:07 PM
Quote from: CherryPie on December 05, 2010, 04:36:37 PM
Quote from: T-Rok on December 05, 2010, 03:06:56 PM
The reason people raise agility though is for the jump in order to reach new places...
correct me if im wrong but you can go everywhere with frog hat and 1 agi, especially if you equip spire.
I don't have a frog hat. I'm unlucky enough to have never had one drop D:
I was level 100 when I got my first frog hat drop man.
Quote from: Ceroblitz on December 05, 2010, 04:40:01 PM
Ya cant reach top of the ship, and other places without switching hats.
That's the point. You still "can" reach everything.
And with the server not being in official development anylonger, PVE has become way less important.
Aaaannnd..who needs jump bonus in pvp again? :P
I said and, You CANT reach the top of the ship with 1-4 agi.
you need 5, I think, with frog hat.
Quote from: Ceroblitz on December 05, 2010, 06:46:58 PM
I said and, You CANT reach the top of the ship with 1-4 agi.
you need 5, I think, with frog hat.
I reach the top with 2 agi and frog hat :I
Quote from: Freeforall on December 06, 2010, 08:46:43 AM
Quote from: Ceroblitz on December 05, 2010, 06:46:58 PM
I said and, You CANT reach the top of the ship with 1-4 agi.
you need 5, I think, with frog hat.
I reach the top with 2 agi and frog hat :I
its probably possible with 1, too. But you could still ask someone to stonehammer you up :p