This is a bit of a handful to read, but I deem it a worthy use of your time, so just read it.
Well, in our suggestions, we're all trying to balance hats, weapons, so that some may be chosen over others. GS/IS do a lot at once, but they take more stamina, while you get more bang for your buck with Katana; however, Katana you have to be able to get more hits in with. Slasher is fast, damage/stamina is better than GS, but you have to get more hits in with it. My point is: You can't just add one beastly weapon, because all others become useless.
If you have new weapons that do 300 base damage and take 150 stamina, It kind of wrecks things as A) You can only swing it once or twice; B) Should you hit, the player is near death; C) Even if the other player is hitting you extremely quick with Spire, it may take 15 to kill you, whereas you can 2 hit them. You are at an insane advantage (despite that you're pretty much screwed if you miss). So now you want to have better hats. A hat that gives a ton of hp, and a different one which gives a ton of stamina, so these big rhino fights can be drawn out. Now you have your world opened to a greater variety of possible stat combinations of hats, damage increase of weapons, and stamina increase of weapons.
But, if you just release one, a few people get it and have that insane advantage over other players. They can do just about whatever, and be unbeatable unless they completely suck. However, with a single release with a large variety of uncommon weapons and hats, each person is likely to get some weapon or hat. As long as the items are balanced, if a person gets one rare drop and PVPs someone who got a different rare drop, things should be just about fair.
I believe that this is essentially what the Desert update did. The update provided the Wooden Hammer, which had the first attainable knock back, and a great damage/stamina ratio; the WH was hard to aim though. The Katana was quick, had a good d/s ratio, but was short ranged. The Great Sword has a not so good d/s ratio, but did a good deal of damage at once; a few GS hits could end the fight, so were able to get greater amounts at once, just less often. The Scythe is similar to the GS, but has a horrid d/s ratio. The Katana/GS pair worked out well, giving the player a choice of two strategies. The Wizard hat allowed you to use or waste more hits with any weapon, particularly the high stamina using GS at the time. The Pirate Hat gave the opportunity for more to be done in a single hit. The Skull Mask gives you more HP to turn things around in a PVP match, as well as a strength/defense bonus.
So what I'm saying is that, scale things up, and things remain relatively the same. PVP doesn't change much, only you have a great deal of new content. Now whether to have these super drops given by the monsters currently (Referring to SO2, but I will later explain that this doesn't apply just to SO2) is an odd question. Things would be spiced up a bit if the monsters had a great variety of drops, and only one of the super drops. People would have a reason to be from the Blobs to DS's to grind for what they would like. But, it's also more logical from my point of view to have a new area. A place full of SGs which would now be easy to fight with the new drops would really shake things up. With super drops, you can now have super monsters. The Desert becomes the newbland, and the 'old newbland' becomes the place that's a joke to be in.
I am suggesting that when things slow down, enormous updates with greatly improved items would be really fun to work with. I'm afraid to suggest overpowered stuff, but 'overpowered' is relative. Give everyone something similar, and it becomes normal. This allows you to have dramatic changes with more 'powerful' weapons/hats without destroying the system.
This idea just keeps growing on itself. You make the 'super' drops dwarfed by the 'uber' drops, and your scale just keeps increasing. But with super drops, your stat points don't help you as much as they used to. So maybe some drops would exponentially increase your stats, to counter that issue?
Also, a thing that makes me somewhat against this concept is that I do not like games with 20k hp or 500k hp... That's just silly to me. So I think things should simply end with your HP max at 2.5k, and your stamina at 5k. Weapon's base damage would not exceed 400. Or something along the lines of that.
Now this concept isn't just applying to SO2, indeed, it is way too much to ask for Meiun to give in what is simply a reward for donors. Thus, this mainly is for SO3. But I do think that this could be made use of in all game experiences.
The door to the bigger world out there opens.
~Aqua
Agh, wall of text! Paragraph it, please.
It is paragraphed, just not spaced with two new lines. There are 7 paragraphs.
~Aqua
Quote from: Aqua on January 05, 2010, 06:48:40 PM
This is a bit of a handful to read, but I deem it a worthy use of your time, so just read it.
Well, in our suggestions, we're all trying to balance hats, weapons, so that some may be chosen over others. GS/IS do a lot at once, but they take more stamina, while you get more bang for your buck with Katana; however, Katana you have to be able to get more hits in with. Slasher is fast, damage/stamina is better than GS, but you have to get more hits in with it. My point is: You can't just add one beastly weapon, because all others become useless.
If you have new weapons that do 300 base damage and take 150 stamina, It kind of wrecks things as A) You can only swing it once or twice; B) Should you hit, the player is near death; C) Even if the other player is hitting you extremely quick with Spire, it may take 15 to kill you, whereas you can 2 hit them. You are at an insane advantage (despite that you're pretty much screwed if you miss). So now you want to have better hats. A hat that gives a ton of hp, and a different one which gives a ton of stamina, so these big rhino fights can be drawn out. Now you have your world opened to a greater variety of possible stat combinations of hats, damage increase of weapons, and stamina increase of weapons.
But, if you just release one, a few people get it and have that insane advantage over other players. They can do just about whatever, and be unbeatable unless they completely suck. However, with a single release with a large variety of uncommon weapons and hats, each person is likely to get some weapon or hat. As long as the items are balanced, if a person gets one rare drop and PVPs someone who got a different rare drop, things should be just about fair.
I believe that this is essentially what the Desert update did. The update provided the Wooden Hammer, which had the first attainable knock back, and a great damage/stamina ratio; the WH was hard to aim though. The Katana was quick, had a good d/s ratio, but was short ranged. The Great Sword has a not so good d/s ratio, but did a good deal of damage at once; a few GS hits could end the fight, so were able to get greater amounts at once, just less often. The Scythe is similar to the GS, but has a horrid d/s ratio. The Katana/GS pair worked out well, giving the player a choice of two strategies. The Wizard hat allowed you to use or waste more hits with any weapon, particularly the high stamina using GS at the time. The Pirate Hat gave the opportunity for more to be done in a single hit. The Skull Mask gives you more HP to turn things around in a PVP match, as well as a strength/defense bonus.
So what I'm saying is that, scale things up, and things remain relatively the same. PVP doesn't change much, only you have a great deal of new content. Now whether to have these super drops given by the monsters currently (Referring to SO2, but I will later explain that this doesn't apply just to SO2) is an odd question. Things would be spiced up a bit if the monsters had a great variety of drops, and only one of the super drops. People would have a reason to be from the Blobs to DS's to grind for what they would like. But, it's also more logical from my point of view to have a new area. A place full of SGs which would now be easy to fight with the new drops would really shake things up. With super drops, you can now have super monsters. The Desert becomes the newbland, and the 'old newbland' becomes the place that's a joke to be in.
This idea just keeps growing on itself. You make the 'super' drops dwarfed by the 'uber' drops, and your scale just keeps increasing. But with super drops, your stat points don't help you as much as they used to. So maybe some drops would exponentially increase your stats, to counter that issue?
Also, a thing that makes me somewhat against this concept is that I do not like games with 20k hp or 500k hp... That's just silly to me. So I think things should simply end with your HP max at 2.5k, and your stamina at 5k. Weapon's base damage would not exceed 400. Or something along the lines of that.
Now this concept isn't just applying to SO2, indeed, it is way too much to ask for Meiun to give in what is simply a reward for donors. Thus, this mainly is for SO3. But I do think that this could be made use of in all game experiences.
The door to the bigger world out there opens.
~Aqua
edit: nvm he fixed it him self.
This is to much reading and what mainly is the point :(
Quote from: Aqua on January 05, 2010, 06:48:40 PM
So what I'm saying is that, scale things up, and things remain relatively the same. PVP doesn't change much, only you have a great deal of new content. Now whether to have these super drops given by the monsters currently (Referring to SO2, but I will later explain that this doesn't apply just to SO2) is an odd question. Things would be spiced up a bit if the monsters had a great variety of drops, and only one of the super drops. People would have a reason to be from the Blobs to DS's to grind for what they would like. But, it's also more logical from my point of view to have a new area. A place full of SGs which would now be easy to fight with the new drops would really shake things up. With super drops, you can now have super monsters. The Desert becomes the newbland, and the 'old newbland' becomes the place that's a joke to be in.
>.>
~Aqua
Thank you for the fix.
I read it, but I'm not sure what exactly you're suggesting. That's pretty much how the system already is.
Meh, spent so much time writing that (which makes me upset that some of you won't take the time to read it), that I forgot to mention what I was suggesting. I am suggesting that when things slow down, enormous updates with greatly improved items would be really fun to work with. I'm afraid to suggest overpowered stuff, but 'overpowered' is relative. Give everyone something similar, and it becomes normal. This allows you to have dramatic changes with more 'powerful' weapons/hats without destroying the system.
~Aqua
I see what thing you are trying to present here. Stick Online as of now is currently a small project that Meiun enjoys doing. If SO3 would become that expansive, it would come out to be a pretty big game, with levels reaching to 400, health reaching a extremely grand amount, while weapons become mega monster killers that new players cannot even use and whatnot, so the game can be pretty large.
Basically it is an idea to expand Stick Online.
That is probably what he is just picking at, what he is trying to present.
Making levels maximum about 400, hp reaching to thousands, and whatnot, supplying the players with tons of new and powerful content that keeps people playing all day, longing for these things, is the goal of the idea.
Also, "Overpowered" is like 3 stam for 25 damage at superspeed, with a long range weapon that hits 4 targets(Maybe too overpowered there).
For the current content in SO2, that example would be way too overpowered. But if you gave a hat with +400 hp, +20 def; that item would not be near as overpowered. Yet I would still call it overpowered, as it makes Stamina useless. So with the hat I suggested, I would place your weapon at 6 stam and 25 damage, swinging at Spire speed. This would shake game play up quite a bit, and yet PVP matches wouldn't be too long or too short, and they would be fair.
~Aqua
Okay, I see what you're saying. The thing is, Meiun was trying to maintain a design that allowed newbie players to stand SOME sort of chance against higher level players. Alas, I think that concept got thrown out the !@#$ing window ages ago. To be honest, I agree with you. I think stats have become too powerful, personally. Needs power escalation on weapons.
I know what you mean by low levels needing a chance against high levels, and I completely agree. That's why I didn't say that levels should get too high: 100 should stay the cap. As I said, hats that exponentially increase items would help balance things out a bit. Maybe that idea could be deteriorating like the Defense formula (which kind of cancels out the exponential part). But, as I was saying, I was thinking that these drops could be relatively common, so that those low levels do have a chance against the high levels.
Plus, my example with the 400hp hat and 25/6 d/s weapon was a bit ahead. I am thinking of a much more subtle update; with +100 hp hats, +13 str/vit hats, +15 agi... Et cetera.
~Aqua
You don't like how each new thing is oneuping the last leaving it in the dust. So you want to add better items to the game to dilute the powerful ones? Is this right? just making sure.
You have been watchmaking too much of The Incredibles. :P
Wooden hammer was long before desert update. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about... So don't suggest things like this =)
I came after the Desert update, so I can only say what I've heard. I have never gotten a WH from a BBB, so it never comes to mind when I think of getting a WH.
~Aqua
The reason is why i suggested higher levels, is that, if there's gonna be a much, much, MUCH larger world out there, and we only depend on super powered hats, we might want to rely on our own skills, too. Once its all item based, there wouldn't be much of a reason to kill except for items now, and not to mention the possibility of quests (kill this monster and get this material for exp / gold).
Also, if there's going to be super powered hats that are common, the monster must be powerful, thus stopping low levels from having a good chance from getting the hat. The point of powerful monsters. Stopping low levels from having a good chance of getting a super powerful item.
If new players want them, they'll have to work to get them, just like other MMOs.
At least raise the cap higher if we are going to have huge powerful monsters and extremely large areas.
Quote from: krele on January 05, 2010, 07:35:49 PM
Wooden hammer was long before desert update. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about... So don't suggest things like this =)
How is the Wooden Hammer being released before the desert update instead of AT the desert update at ALL related to the validity of his suggestion? Did you even bother to READ it?
Aqua, this has already happened. Back before the desert, Short Swords and Whips were THE thing to have. The 'Level Barrier' if you will was much larger back then, because we had a larger opportunity for error with these weapons. I think this was a good thing. I entirely disagree with making super awesome weapons because if they are too powerful, it takes the human element out of the game, meaning that it doesn't really matter how good you are, unless you have the coolest new thing, you don't stand a chance. What makes SO fun (to me) is the fact that you have to be skilled. No doubt the game should keep expanding, but I think there should be weapons that appeal to different builds at the same tier. This adds diversity and choices and room for human error that keep the human element in tact and fun. And when there's more human error, the 'Level Barrier' becomes wider and 25's can beat 50's and so on.
I actually would like the exact inverse of this to happen. Rather than expanding to the higher end items and monsters, the lower and mid range should be built out more. It's extremely frustrating that you don't get a decent weapon until such high levels. The Short Sword is rather low, so when you get to the mid range of levels, there's a huge gap (unless you're lucky) before you get to the higher level of items such as katana or GS. We need more varied ranges of items and monsters within our current range. We don't need to expand the upper end of the range. At least not to the extent it sounds like you are referring to here.
It's a good idea, but it's really just a general concept. The idea is to keep the game balanced. Saying you want this for SO3 is completely meaningless. Obviously Meiun is going to try to balance the escalation of the game difficulty from level 1 to cap. He did that with SO2. The difference is that there is just not enough content to be able to work with. I imagine for SO3, he will have someone cranking out different random items that will fill out the gaps. Or else he will do it with skills or something. In essence, you want something challenging at each level of the game, and something to look forward to when you pass that level.
I think it is typical for most people playing SO2 to think about end game content. Bigger and better items and monsters. But that is only one aspect of the game. When SO3 starts out, it will be months before anyone even reaches that point. In the meantime, people are going to want a fun and challenging experience getting there. So, yes, at level cap there should be bigger and better items and monsters to look forward to for end game purposes (though maybe not to the etreme of thousands of stat points) but there also needs to be similar focus on the lower and mid range levels.
@Lingus: There was MASSIVE pacing issues with Stick Online in general. Something that will hopefully be resolved if and when SO3 is released.
(context of Aqua not understanding my last not well made post)
I was just asking if you wanted adding good items that are commend to the game to make the overpower weapons less overpowered because the way the game is now everything seemed to have to outdo the last. is that what your saying?
Quote from: Lingus on January 05, 2010, 08:12:09 PM
I actually would like the exact inverse of this to happen. Rather than expanding to the higher end items and monsters, the lower and mid range should be built out more. It's extremely frustrating that you don't get a decent weapon until such high levels. The Short Sword is rather low, so when you get to the mid range of levels, there's a huge gap (unless you're lucky) before you get to the higher level of items such as katana or GS. We need more varied ranges of items and monsters within our current range. We don't need to expand the upper end of the range. At least not to the extent it sounds like you are referring to here.
It's a good idea, but it's really just a general concept. The idea is to keep the game balanced. Saying you want this for SO3 is completely meaningless. Obviously Meiun is going to try to balance the escalation of the game difficulty from level 1 to cap. He did that with SO2. The difference is that there is just not enough content to be able to work with. I imagine for SO3, he will have someone cranking out different random items that will fill out the gaps. Or else he will do it with skills or something. In essence, you want something challenging at each level of the game, and something to look forward to when you pass that level.
I think it is typical for most people playing SO2 to think about end game content. Bigger and better items and monsters. But that is only one aspect of the game. When SO3 starts out, it will be months before anyone even reaches that point. In the meantime, people are going to want a fun and challenging experience getting there. So, yes, at level cap there should be bigger and better items and monsters to look forward to for end game purposes (though maybe not to the etreme of thousands of stat points) but there also needs to be similar focus on the lower and mid range levels.
I think that both would be fun, useful, and everything else. It would be great to have something between Bandits and Skeletons, and a mix between Skeleton hp and Cacti attack. Not to mention that with the common BA spawn rate, it would be nice to have an intermediate for Blobs and BA too.
~Aqua
IMO I recon there should be really strong weapons, with low drop rates and come from a strong monster. If newbies get the best weapons and hats what are they going to get next? This is why newbies rarley go to desert.. who knows, they could get themselves and inferno sword or dragoon helmet.
Your talking about balancing out the game, it balances out when they work for it themselves.
If newbies beat someone 30 levels ahead of them, this puts the stat system out. In the end if both players are level 100, it is balanced out, on the off chance one of them doesnt have a great sword, too bad for them. This game is supposed to be fun not serious. I was level 41 when i went up aganst a level like 99, yer i go slaughtered but when im on the way to level 100 i will find the rare hats and weapons, then it will be even.
The game is fine the way it is, introducing much better hats and weapons is only going to delay the balance in the game.
I do remember my 2nd new account (lvl 5) killed a lvl 15. I only had a branch at the time, he had something stronger (dont remember what tho).
Quote from: Chaos on January 05, 2010, 08:17:59 PM
@Lingus: There was MASSIVE pacing issues with Stick Online in general. Something that will hopefully be resolved if and when SO3 is released.
Yea. That's pretty much what I'm getting at. The pacing was always odd to me. I agree that I think it will be much better in SO3.
Quote from: Chaos on January 05, 2010, 07:41:52 PM
Quote from: krele on January 05, 2010, 07:35:49 PM
Wooden hammer was long before desert update. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about... So don't suggest things like this =)
How is the Wooden Hammer being released before the desert update instead of AT the desert update at ALL related to the validity of his suggestion? Did you even bother to READ it?
Eh... I just felt like being an ass at that time... My apologies aqua =(
Quote from: krele on January 06, 2010, 07:57:25 PM
Quote from: Chaos on January 05, 2010, 07:41:52 PM
Quote from: krele on January 05, 2010, 07:35:49 PM
Wooden hammer was long before desert update. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about... So don't suggest things like this =)
How is the Wooden Hammer being released before the desert update instead of AT the desert update at ALL related to the validity of his suggestion? Did you even bother to READ it?
I just buy my wh at the shop in the cliffside between the arena and the clubhouse.
I see what you are getting at. Neat idea...