The 'Ultimate Tank'

[Celson]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But basically my quick definition of a 'tank' is a player who has a high damage % per hit. So to be a real tank you'd have to have 1 int and 1 agility since they do not raise damage %. Now originally I thought "Ahh yeah, if you'd want a higher damage % than your opponent then you'd have to have 99 vit". But according to Prosper and Seifers 'theory', they say as your vit increases, the effect of defence reduces (yeah I may have not explained it very well). Here's Seifer's explanation...

The point is, the more vit you get, the less effective it becomes towards Defense. So maybe at 20 vit your getting 4.5% but at 60 vit it would be maybe... 2%.. Who knows, i dont know the percentages, but you get the idea.

So that means, at a certain point, VIT will become less effective than STR per stat point. If we can find out when this occurs, then the 'Ultimate Tank' could be created. Unfortunately I don't believe the necessary formulas to figure this out are known. Or maybe they are but I just can't figure it out.

Here are formulas that may be relevant...

Prosper/Seifer's defence formula: baseDamage*(.22+(1-.22)/(1+defense*.1))    (Oh btw, that formula does not make a whole lot of sense. The result of 0.22+(1-0.22) = 1, so wouldn't baseDamage*(1/(1+defense*.1)) be a more appropriate formula?)

Seifer's damage formula: Damage = 1+(STR*4/100)*Weapon_Damage

Now if both of these formulas are correct, can they be used to calculate what the 'ultimate tank' would be? If yes, is anyone willing to figure this out? Or at least explain to me how it would be done? That way I can go off and do it. Cause I honestly have no idea how it could be done.

Opinions?

[Torch]

Vit doesn't give any less def at later levels, def just becomes less effective to a point. That point depends on the opponent's str and weapon though, so there will never be any fixed "Ultimate Tank" build.

[Celson]

Vit doesn't give any less def at later levels, def just becomes less effective to a point. That point depends on the opponent's str and weapon though, so there will never be any fixed "Ultimate Tank" build.

Lol no need to already explain something I already cleary stated that I knew. And in regards to the second part of your post, I don't think the opponents str or weapon is relevant. Because the defence formula doesn't do anything with there damage until it's divided by the percentage. So there should be some point where STR becomes more effective towards the Damage % than VIT.

[Prosper]

I've studied this ultimate build a few months ago when I had just found about the def formulae.. I've layed out all the possibilities and as long as you calculate in a hit-for-hit with equal gear point of view, The more the VIT the more hits you can land on your opponent.

a 70str 30vit build will lose to a 30str 70vit build if they go hit for hit.

Its quite logical when you see (-.-) 65vit and FoG 70ish VIT winning tournaments.

Not wanting to replicate these build I have figured out what was the optimal str possible to have (for easier PvE play) without losing to much pvp hit-for-hitability.

Example lets say a VIT tank would finish you in 3.80 hits and you would finish him with 3.01 hits. It's still hit-for-hit but you get to have more STR in your build than he does.

I think all this isn'T too clear for others to understand but.. it lead to Atlas' build.

[Lingus]

Prosper/Seifer's defence formula: baseDamage*(.22+(1-.22)/(1+defense*.1))    (Oh btw, that formula does not make a whole lot of sense. The result of 0.22+(1-0.22) = 1, so wouldn't baseDamage*(1/(1+defense*.1)) be a more appropriate formula?)

In the formula listed, you have to do (1-.22)/(1+defense*.1) first before you add the .22 back in. It's simple order of operations. You do the division before you can do the addition. If you have 1+2/3, it would not equal 3/3 because you have to do 2/3 first and then add 1.

In any case, to be on topic, I do not believe the definition of a tank is to have higher damage % than your opponent. In my opinion, a tank is defined as having a balance between defense and damage. You can take a good amount of damage, and you can also deal a good amount of damage. In this case, the "ultimate" tank would just have a balance between vit and str. Though, that would somewhat depend on how effect each of those stats are to defense and damage respectively.

[Prosper]

Prosper/Seifer's defence formula: baseDamage*(.22+(1-.22)/(1+defense*.1))    (Oh btw, that formula does not make a whole lot of sense. The result of 0.22+(1-0.22) = 1, so wouldn't baseDamage*(1/(1+defense*.1)) be a more appropriate formula?)

In the formula listed, you have to do (1-.22)/(1+defense*.1) first before you add the .22 back in. It's simple order of operations. You do the division before you can do the addition. If you have 1+2/3, it would not equal 3/3 because you have to do 2/3 first and then add 1.

In any case, to be on topic, I do not believe the definition of a tank is to have higher damage % than your opponent. In my opinion, a tank is defined as having a balance between defense and damage. You can take a good amount of damage, and you can also deal a good amount of damage. In this case, the "ultimate" tank would just have a balance between vit and str. Though, that would somewhat depend on how effect each of those stats are to defense and damage respectively.

Right ! as I just showed here : http://www.stick-online.com/boards/index.php?topic=623.150

[Seifer]

Prosper says that the 70/30 vit/str would beat the str/vit 70/30 toe to toe, but I don't think he is taking into account hats. A DKH turns someone with 32 vit into a huge tank, whereas the gains it gives someone with 70~ vit is much, much less. I know that as a roughly "70/30 Str/Vit" I can go toe to toe, if not beat foG and Dipz. It's been awhile but I would have to double check. Most likely, we tie.

[Prosper]

I had a spread sheet back then with level 1-100 listed down in this pattern :

STR/VIT
1/99
2/98
3/97
(...)
97/3
98/2
99/1

And in each cases the hit-for-hit ratio.

In general anything lower than 20 on a stat is un balanced. For the rest VIT is more viable than STR.

[foG]

Aqua's account has the same ammount of STR as my account's vit. His VIT is also as high as my STR.

Aqua calculated everything as we went hit for hit, and I can't quite remember the exact result but I think I only had a little (like 5-10) HP more than him before last hit. Which would mean his stats are better because he does more DMG every hit than me. So I am almost a hundred % sure 30/70 and 70/30 would tie.

[Seifer]

Yep. On top of that, it allows for greater PvE, and one thing I have personally found is that Vittanks are used to being able to soak up a lot of hits, used to a long PvP match with lots of sitting. When I PvP a vittank, the match is over in 3-5 hits. This really switches the playstyle for the Vitank and throws them off, giving me an edge, as I'm used to all PvP ending that quickly.

[Prosper]

I've added comparison grids STR vs VIT to my main GUIDE on vit/def/hp.. you guys should have a look ive Edited the original post :

http://www.stick-online.com/boards/index.php?topic=623.0

[ARTgames]

That chart is a little confusing but what I think your trying to say is the vit guy always has about 1 more hit he can take. right?

[Prosper]

Pretty much 1-2 more hits he can take. Not considering that he can just sit down and wait for hit-for-hit to happen. Regenerating meanwhile.

[Seifer]

Your table is incorrect. I have 32 vit. With a DKH on, I have 19 defense. You have 32+DKH listed as 17. Don't forget the boost you get from the DKH of 4 vit, as well as it's own defense bonus.

You also should include somehow in this the GB.

Lastly, take into account that not all vittanks would even use the DKH, as it's effect is much less with such high def anyways. Maybe foG or dipz can weigh in on this.

[Prosper]

That would be a lot to much to chart all the possibilities. Lets continue this discussion in the guide to vit hp def topic