Spire.

[foG]

Alright, now people might know I have my problems with the Spire Dagger dropped by BA.
In my view it's clearly overpowered and especially against low agi dudes -without spire- damn unfair.

So now here is what I mean:
The spire drains HP so fast it's incredible, I tested it. Danimal hit me, fully equiped, and tested if he'd
stam on me with spire (because we discussed about it). I used gb and my crown, and when I had about
10 HP left he stammed. I also counted how long he needed to kill me. I counted 4 seconds (I could hit
him 2 times with GS). 4 seconds to drain about 470 HP, in my opinion that's damn overpowered. I
also need to meantion his int was 1 I think.

I know you don't stand still during pvp but I still think it makes clear what I mean.


I'd like your opinions

[Tyco-RC]

I think Spire is fine.

The stam use has already been raised once and once is enough.

The only good point you make is that low agi players can't escape its attack but that is your own fault, you made the account the way it is and even if it was before the Spire was release it doesn't matter since any new item added would have benifits to some players and draw-backs for others.

It's all about luck with drops, I can say GB is over-powered since it gives 65hp an 4 str an that makes a hugh difference to players who dont have one such as myself but you cant change it just because its unfair to you as you have to put the effort in to get the good drops and thats it.

[Danimal]

Good, I'm glad you made a topic about it. First I'd like to point out that Danimal doesn't even have a spire, lol. Whilst your point is still valid it was more around 7-8 seconds with both of us standing still, and that's not including that I stammed, and as a result leaves me helpless against your attacks. You acknoledge it in your post, that obviously you don't stand still in PvP but I don't feel you see how much of a difference that factor makes. Any spire user will tell you, whether or not they're biased, that the spire is extremely tough to use accurately, and ridiculously stam heavy. This together makes it balanced, IMO. Spire users know the risk of using spire in a fight that they will probably stam. Oponents can easily recognise this due to a sudden decrease in offensive attacks. This is where they are rendered helpless, you can attack with much more powerful weapons, knowing they can't hit back. I have lost many PvP matches due to this, so to me, it's clearly an issue and a definite drawback to the Spire Dagger. In addition, it is a very rare, and powerful weapon it's innevitably going to be a bitch to fight. To further back my case, I very rarely use spire when I PvP because it does take skill to use, and I often miss way too much and get beaten as a result. The specific issue you have is low agi being helpless against it. That is very true, players with low agility are much more prone to the spire's advantages, they're much more easy to hit accurately. However, players are slow, why? Because they have vit or str, which in turn equalises the fight. You get hit more, but you have the vit to survive.

[foG]

I meant you as player, I think it was on your igumal account.

Well yea let it be 6 seconds... you need like 30 seconds to kill someone with gs if you go thit for hit, without moving. And yes I also know you don't stand still during pvp that's what I meantioned right? But still, during a pvp I hit you once whilst you hit me 2 times until my animation is over (that's another point, spire has like 3 or 4 super fast frames?) plus you can hit me during my cooldown.

Sure some time you are stammed and I have like 50 hp and if I got some hits in you are at like 200? Great. it's still easier for the stammed dude to get a spire hit in once in a while than the dude with 50 hp as he knows he can die any second and needs to heal. And healing 17 stam is also easier than 150 hp.

[Chaos]

especially against low agi dudes

This is intentional.

Danimal hit me, fully equiped,

You'll have to be more specific.  Does that include his GM helmet?

I counted 4 seconds (I could hit
him 2 times with GS). 4 seconds to drain about 470 HP

That's why you don't stand still during PVP.

I also need to meantion his int was 1 I think.

You also need to 'know', not 'I think'.

I know you don't stand still during pvp but I still think it makes clear what I mean.

Indeed.  However, your post is missing some facts that are fairly crucial, namely what Danimal's INT *IS* and what equipment is 'fully equipped'.  If he did indeed knock off that much damage without running out of stam on only *1* INT, then I agree, that should probably be changed.  

At the same time, I intended the Spire to be powerful, in order to compete against the Inferno Sword and Slasher.  Considering how people like to act like INT and AGI is not worth putting points into, it was also my intention to take advantage of their slowness.

The other thing to consider is actual PVP skill, which you didn't take into account at all.  Whenever I designed a weapon, and no doubt when Meiun implemented it, it has always been the intention that the player skill take precedence over equipment or stats.  If you're up against something, take advantage of its weakness, such as the GS/IS's re-use delay.  The question that must be asked is, does the Spire have a weakness?

-It has virtually no re-use delay.
-If what you say is accurate, it has a cheap enough Stam cost to drain or nearly drain a player before stamming out.
-It has fair range.
-It has fast strike animation.
-No mention is made on its damage.

In conclusion:  Can we see a weakness here?  If not, then something should be changed.  I'd appreciate if you could also answer:

Damage per strike, with what DEF and what STR?
What equipment exactly was Danimal using?
What is Danimal's INT?


EDIT:

But still, during a pvp I hit you once whilst you hit me 2 times until my animation is over (that's another point, spire has like 3 or 4 super fast frames?) plus you can hit me during my cooldown.

Again, intentional.  Spire is supposed to counter GS/IS, while Slasher is intended to counter Spire with better range and decent speed.  Meanwhile, GS/IS is intended to counter Slasher with power.  That's what I had in mind when I made the thing and sent it to Meiun.

[Danimal]

To answer your point about stam being easier to get back than HP, I think it's equal. Have you any idea how slow it is to get 17 stam back from 0 in a fight with 1 int? You have to dance around and bluff and pretend that you're going to attack but that's all part of the skill. You can easily see I'm stammed and heal, which in your case builds up HP in no time. Equally eventually I get 17 stamina back.. I hit out and probably miss, like I usually do, then I'm back to square 1 again, and you can once again heal.. being stammed isn't waiting for a few seconds then back to full. It's a very bad position to be in, once you get enough to hit back, you have to really make sure it hits. If it does/doesn't you're still stammed for a long while again. I'd also like to point out that you don't have a spire. How can you possibly judge it fairly? I know you say you don't want one, and would never use it etc.

If it was OP'ed wouldn't ever spire user own you in PvP? They don't. I know for a fact you still win tons of PvPs and having two seperate accounts myself (lucky enough to both have spire) I still can't beat you every time. meaning that it can't be as OP'ed as you say.

[Tyco-RC]

Like I said in my post, different weapons benefit different players that's just the way it is.

I know you won tournies to go your items and everyone had a chance to win as well but aside from that, do you think it would be fair on players to use your Crown or LLS as other players don't have them, I don't but no one has complained about that and its the same with Spire, everyone can get it so put the work in an get one then you can use it the same as everyone else.

EDIT: What is that that you would want to change about the Spire, its speed, power, stam use?

[Mr Pwnage]

I am in complete agreement with FoG despite the masses...and aside from the fact it is numerically broken, it is so glitchy in terms of hitboxes that it just worsens the whole situation. That pure failure of that one particular weapon is a good 80% of why I choose not to play stick online anymore...or at least at a bare minimum only going on for tournys. It's kind of discouraging knowing that all your leveling and years of experience with the game can be soured by one bad egg, but it indeed ticked me off to this degree. Everything about the weapon just spoils the game, and that is my own personal opinion. Haters gonna hate.

[foG]

@Tyco, it's not about the tourney. Also, I didn't even fight Lucifer.

and @Chaos, all the information we'd have to gather again, because I don't have them in mind. I used GB and my crown and Razor used GB and switched to DKH afterwards. His int was indeed 1, I said 'I think' because I was not too sure whether it was his Razor or igumal account.

And I don't know if Razor will reveal his STR etc..


/edit: Razor's STR is 40 and my def is 29 or 30.

[Tyco-RC]

My mistake, I thought you did and for that I apologise.

But anyway how would you like the Spire to be changed, the speed? Stam use? Range? Power? or removed altogether?

EDIT: I think unless you reduce more than one factor its still going to be a very damaging weapon, for example if stam use is increase you can still attack with the same power an speed, same goes for speed it would still attack with the same power an use 17 or so stam. So unless you reduced the speed an power or any combination to change the item it wouldnt be alot different.

If there is such a problem with it just remove it altogether and that will be that.

If that happened I feel sorry for people who have tried there hardest to obtain this item, including myself but I don't want one item getting in the way of people playing Stick Online.

[Danimal]

Okay, so, me and foG just tested his previously mentioned example of Razor and him in a hit4hit fight.

Result:
Both using GB, a defence hat and standing still Spire vs GS, foG wins, I stammed very quickly and my int recovery was nowhere near fast enough to finish him. Over the time of my int recovery his GS beat me ending in him having 54 hp left. (which I might add is still about 3 more spire hits..)

[Mr Pwnage]

My mistake, I thought you did and for that I apologise.

But anyway how would you like the Spire to be changed, the speed? Stam use? Range? Power? or removed altogether?

Well no offense to Chaos (though I'm sure he didn't put loads of effort, if any at all into a 2 framed sprite consisting of about 20 pixels), but it does look rather horrible and awkward in comparison to the other weapons. It operates in a manner that is completely frustrating and destroys game play when made a factor. I could make a massive list with all of my problems with it but I think Meiun would run out of bandwidth. I think that particular weapon is so broken that I would love more than anything to see it removed completely. Though, I'm sure the people lucky enough to acquire the dagger would be very upset about that...so there should be some sort of reimbursement if this were to ever happen.

and @ Dan:
That's all well and good, but maybe you should test it on those of us who aren't generic enough to load up on vit...you should test some medium vit people, as in about 30....people with very low vit too...with 20 or less. I'm sure you'll find that silly dagger conquers the majority of the masses. If you want a true balance test, find people who have extremely similar or exactly the same stats and work that out.

[Tyco-RC]

Well no offense to Chaos (though I'm sure he didn't put loads of effort, if any at all into a 2 framed sprite consisting of about 20 pixels), but it does look rather horrible and awkward in comparison to the other weapons. It operates in a manner that is completely frustrating and destroys game play when made a factor. I could make a massive list with all of my problems with it but I think Meiun would run out of bandwidth. I think that particular weapon is so broken that I would love more than anything to see it removed completely. Though, I'm sure the people lucky enough to acquire the dagger would be very upset about that...so there should be some sort of reimbursement if this were to ever happen.
[/quote]

I like the the idea of an item trade in like everyone who has the Spire can swap it for something else out of a list of carefully selected items by GM's and I for one would then fully support any action taken with the Spire providing whoever has obtained it has something in return but that would be for the GM's to discuss between themselves.

[foG]

Example Razor& foG
1 spire hit with 40 STR on 29(!) def: 22 DMG
1 GS hit with 25 STR on 25def: 37 DMG

We also tested hit for hit, he stammed when I was at 95 HP and I could keep on hitting him. So he got me down to roughly 50 dmg until I killed him.


Example Lucifer& foG (na hats)
1 spire hit with 40 STR on 21 def: 28dmg
1 GS hit with 25 STR on 13 def: 45 DMG

Hit for hit, he killed me. I got 4 gs hits in. He had 185 HP left.....


Also, there is no weapon in the game that is that much biased. Like it's a low-agility killer! It gives people with arround 15 agility the ultimative way to kill every tank with ease, be it a str or vit tank. And if they face someone with higher agi they just use GS/slasher/IS to kill those. There's no other weapon that is like that, I can't really explain what exactly I mean by that...

[Riserva]

Well, I think an opinion from TheGoD that has absolutely no special item is valid (except GB which I got couple days ago - chuffed? yes), right?

Let me start off with I do think that the spire is overpowered, but not ridiculously overpowered unlike that other bitch of an item the Bandit Assassin drops. Even though the drop rate is incredibly low, those who do receive the item suddenly become the best PVP'er out there because of it and that BC. What an ass the BA is, take him away.
The damage does not need changing. But I am jumping miles out of distance and it hits me whether the opponent is lagging or not, it annoys me as it is clearly a powerful weapon. It's intention was to be rare and better than other weapons (otherwise, what's the point of introducting it, right?) but the range is friggen ridiculous. Shorten the range, all I ask.

And someone needs to host a GS tournament. YEAH! Then TG can shine.