Spire.

[DeamonClawz]

well, I agree the spire does ridiculous damage. Even if its stam heavy, someone with more than 7 int can easily eat through anyone out there. But whatever, I can't really complain.

[Mystery]

Well, I think an opinion from TheGoD that has absolutely no special item is valid (except GB which I got couple days ago - chuffed? yes), right?

Let me start off with I do think that the spire is overpowered, but not ridiculously overpowered unlike that other bitch of an item the Bandit Assassin drops.

This is the main problem I have with this topic. Spire Dagger is a good weapon, not QUITE overpowered in my eyes, it's just near the very top of the weapon list in quality. Bandit Cover, on the other hand, IS ridiculously overpowered. BC is a counter to SD in a sense, since it gives you a ridiculously high speed boost without the added jump power(which is arguably better since high jumps give your opponent more time to act), equivalent to +17 AGI, according to Prosper.

Also, AGI and INT were(and still are, to some) as 'throwaway' stats, only necessary for fun past a certain point. SD gives you a very good reason to add AGI, and so does Slasher. GS and IS are an incentive for tanking, due to the tendency for most people to near hit-for-hit completely.

The question that must be asked is, does the Spire have a weakness?

I can list several cons off the top of my head:
-Incredibly ridiculous stamina usage, meaning anyone with low INT can't use it as well
-High AGIs(or people with BC) become considerably more difficult to hit
-Slasher is a 'counter weapon' to Spire Dagger
-Range is considerably smaller than GS/Slasher/IS range
-Very rare weapon

A very easy way I could see to balance the Spire more is to have the range decreased to that of Katana. Personally, I have very little issue with it now, and what issue I do have with it I have FAR more with its counterpart, the Bandit Cover.

What an ass the BA is, take him away.

Replace BA with BBB, everyone winrars!

[Aqua]

It is definitely an unbalanced weapon. It has a terrible damage/stam ratio and a crazy good damage/second ratio. It should be fixed, but not by decreasing damage/increasing stamina.
If it comes down to damage and stamina, I'd say decrease both but have an overall damage/stam ratio increase.
~Aqua

[CherryPie]

uhhhhh, well ofc I want to publish my opinion on this topic, too. I have a lot of experience with this weapon now, and I can definitly say, you guys are looking at the wrong place.
A spire is only deadly if a high agi(15+) user with decent str and nice dodging skills manages to aqquire it.
And yes, like seifer said, it is: Slasher > Spire > IS > Slasher
And yeah, here we have the main problem in this complete thread!
didn't you get it?
We are comparing a Great Sword with the spire dagger. Hello? Spire dagger is way more rare and therefor supposed to be stronger. While GS is a A weapon, IS & spire are triple A!
if you have alot of str, the high agi user with the spire wont have either enough str to kill you before you kill him or enough defense to survive enough of your hits.

So the spire is just fine!
Something else i am worrying is the Bandit Cover, Yes guys! It drops more often than dragoon and gives WAY more stat bonuses. Hello?

You can just get a spire and bc and put 14 points, you would normally needed in agi for the spire to be very effective in str to make the spire OP, and there is the point, not the spire is OP, but the str of most peeps with bc!
-> they don't have to put the 14 points in agi, when  they can get BC and they still get an ridicolous amount of def for free aswell(4)....

Think of this, I did before posting.

~CherryPie

[Mystery]

uhhhhh, well ofc I want to publish my opinion on this topic, too. I have a lot of experience with this weapon now, and I can definitly say, you guys are looking at the wrong place.
A spire is only deadly if a high agi(15+) user with decent str and nice dodging skills manages to aqquire it.
And yes, like seifer said, it is: Slasher > Spire > IS > Slasher
And yeah, here we have the main problem in this complete thread!
didn't you get it?
We are comparing a Great Sword with the spire dagger. Hello? Spire dagger is way more rare and therefor supposed to be stronger. While GS is a A weapon, IS & spire are triple A!
if you have alot of str, the high agi user with the spire wont have either enough str to kill you before you kill him or enough defense to survive enough of your hits.

So the spire is just fine!
Something else i am worrying is the Bandit Cover, Yes guys! It drops more often than dragoon and gives WAY more stat bonuses. Hello?

You can just get a spire and bc and put 14 points, you would normally needed in agi for the spire to be very effective in str to make the spire OP, and there is the point, not the spire is OP, but the str of most peeps with bc!
-> they don't have to put the 14 points in agi, when  they can get BC and they still get an ridicolous amount of def for free aswell(4)....

Think of this, I did before posting.

~CherryPie

Fully agree with CherryPie on this. Spire Dagger isn't overpowered, Bandit Cover is.

Also, for the purpose of classifying weapons like you said with the As and triple As, it'd be appreciated if more people helped with input HERE.

[Tyco-RC]

BC gives +6 agi and +3def not 4. Plus its run bonus.

DH gives +3str +2 agi +2 vit and +5def. Plus its jump bonus.

BC is not over powered it and hardly gives you the value of 14 agi.

And I think you don't like it simply because you don't have it, if you did you would have a completely different take on it.

[Danimal]

BC gives +6 agi and +3def not 4. Plus its run bonus.

It's +4 defence :P

[Tyco-RC]

Dont want to argue so it can be 4.

[Meiun]

I <3 how people are saying they have gotten pissed off and quit the game over something that I'd be more than happy to take a look at (and potentially change/fix). The problem obviously isn't going to get fixed if it is never brought to my attention (or at least if it's not done so properly).

If there really are problems as fundamental as the weapons hit box being off, I will certainly check that out and try to fix it. While I myself don't have a Spire on my Meiun account to play with, I still somehow would be surprised if there were any huge error in it's hitbox, but I will check it out once I can.

As for balancing issues, I am not saying anything in regards to whether the Spire is over or under powered, that is something I'll need to look into a bit further before making any serious changes to things. However, you guys do realize that most games out there, there are simply some builds/items that have an advantage over others. I know that for a long time with Stick Online, having a high VIT build was simply the the best way to go in terms of PVP, largely because there was no weapon or setup that could counter that too effectively. So if you do have a complaint about the Spire, make sure it isn't purely based off the fact that it is good against you specifically, but rather that it is too good in general.

You should also note that there are some weapons that are simply better than others. I try to make the game revolve around skill much more than your typical MMO, in the sense that gear and stats are definitely not the only factor in who can win. But they definitely are going to end up playing a part, or else whats the point of them? A lot of stuff in the game is intended to have it's place, and perhaps be good at one thing while another item is good at another. But this concept can only go so far before things become stale and boring. To some extent, I feel there still does need to be some stuff that pushes a bit further than simply being "different" yet totally equal.

Lastly, while this statement can only go so far (seeing as this version of the game is clearly never going to reach the state of what I would consider "complete"), my original idea was really to have the bulk of PVP in the game be focused a bit more around group/clan based fighting, as well as it not always happening in the restrictions of an arena ring. This concept could be seen much better in the games original PVP setup of attack anyone you want at any time, anywhere. With this setup, things are much more complex and revolve around many more factors than just comparing player A to player B in a generic and trivial fighting environment. If one player were to find himself up against someone that has any form of advantage over his character, if they coordinate things well he may very well be able to have his clan-mate who is better suited for this situation come in and help as he goes and hides behind a rock or other environmental feature (or something like that). Things were never really intended to be totally cut and dry.

Now, all that being said, I realize that even with all of this stuff considered, it is still totally possible for there to be an item that is simply not balanced/designed well. Ever since I first added the Spire, I was aware that this was really a different kind of item than most of the other high end ones I had added in the past. So I have been a bit iffy and unconfident about its stats all along. It certainly is suppose to be a really great item, as well as one that can be especially effective against slow moving builds. But it definitely was never intended to be the "rape the crap out of everyone weapon." I can't exactly do much about it until my rather frustrating computer situation is resolved, but once it is, I will look into it a bit further.

Edit: I will also take a look at the BC as well, as that seems to be a point of controversy too.

[Mystery]

BC gives +6 agi and +3def not 4. Plus its run bonus.

Again, according to Prosper, the +6 AGI and the run bonus give you an equivalent of 17 AGI with a 6 AGI jump boost. The run boost is massive.

DH gives +3str +2 agi +2 vit and +5def. Plus its jump bonus.

The thing is, those stats make DH a very good hat, but they aren't all crammed into a single stat.

Think of it this way. Which item would you consider better: the hat that gives +20 STR, or the hat that gives +5 STR, +5 AGI, +5 VIT, and +5 INT? Add this in with the fact small bonuses are worse than major bonuses to stats and you've got a rather large gap.

Also, +17 AGI speed equivalent without all the jump(which, let's face it, is near completely useless in PVP anyway, so it shouldn't really count)+ 4 Defense equals a +21 point boost. That's ridiculous.

DH, if you combine +3 STR, +2 AGI, +2 VIT, and +5 Def, all of which are weaker divided anyway, you get a +12 stat boost. That's very good, not obnoxiously good. If you do the same with DKH, you get a +11 boost, which is better because it all focuses on VIT. There is a large gap between these and the moderate level items, but the gap between BC and everything else is ridiculous.

BC is not over powered it and hardly gives you the value of 14 agi.

Really? I PVPed Drop and I can tell you that the AGI speed he runs at is pretty close to that of a 20 AGI, if not slightly more. At that speed, my 31 AGI helps, but very very barely. It's MUCH less of a help, all because of a giant boost in one stat. And he has 1 base AGI.

And I think you don't like it simply because you don't have it, if you did you would have a completely different take on it.

I can say that I would like the BC, but only to use against those who use it to PVP. Anything else I wouldn't want to. And I can say the exact same about those who don't have Spire Dagger, if they got one, they wouldn't complain. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is the problem here. I agree 100% with you when you said this:

I know you won tournies to go your items and everyone had a chance to win as well but aside from that, do you think it would be fair on players to use your Crown or LLS as other players don't have them, I don't but no one has complained about that and its the same with Spire, everyone can get it so put the work in an get one then you can use it the same as everyone else.

I think that foG just wants Spire Dagger. Spire counters Spire rather well, then you can hit-for-hit and win easily.

However, regarding the BC, I disagree and I think it is overpowered when compared with all of the other hats. If Meiun was to nerf anything, I'd really rather have him nerf Bandit Cover, not Spire Dagger.

[Aqua]

With regards to the 'glitch hit box,' there is no 'glitch' about it. The fact that it swings fairly instantly amplifies any lag. Suddenly having 90 ping can still give the impression of a huge miss because the transfer rate doesn't scale with speed.
I do believe that the total speed bonus from the BC is 17. With BC and Spire, Aqua (20 agi) is nearly as fast as a 40 agi account. A big issue is that this rather shatters the point of agility.
~Aqua

[Seifer]

Don't forget DKH also gives the equivalent of a massive stat boost. I get +9 def from wearing it. Imagine how much more VIT I would have needed to add to get that much def. If anything, I feel there should also be a hat that gives such a massive advantage to STR. We already have one for AGI and one for Defense, where is the uber-str hat?

In regards to spire, I've never had it in my hands, so I can't say it's balance. But I can say that it has to be in the right hands to abuse it, and the right opponent to use it on. foG, I have 1 agi, and I can still dodge the blasted thing. Just jump a lot, let them waste hits and miss, stam out, than rape them.

[Mystery]

With regards to the 'glitch hit box,' there is no 'glitch' about it. The fact that it swings fairly instantly amplifies any lag. Suddenly having 90 ping can still give the impression of a huge miss because the transfer rate doesn't scale with speed.
I do believe that the total speed bonus from the BC is 17. With BC and Spire, Aqua (20 agi) is nearly as fast as a 40 agi account. A big issue is that this rather shatters the point of agility.
~Aqua

If that's the case, then that strengthens my argument even more, I thought Drop had 6 AGI. Editing previous post.

[Aqua]

Drop has or had 1 agility a while back, seeing as I remember him saying he was the first 1 agi to get onto the upper branch alone. I think he still has 1 agi.
~Aqua

[Seifer]

Drop has or had 1 agility a while back, seeing as I remember him saying he was the first 1 agi to get onto the upper branch alone. I think he still has 1 agi.
~Aqua

Pffft, I do it all the time alone!