Bandit Cover

[CherryPie]

Ok, so many people(including me) think, that it isn't the Spire that is OP'd, but the Bandit Cover.
We covered this already a bit in the spire thread, but it is kind of offtopic there.

Just to clear things completely with the BC thing, I did the math for you guys, to find out which hat is the best,
when you start a new account and base your stats on it (disregarding the fact that a stat looses a bit of its value at some point ).

Points needed to emulate the effect of..

DKH: 4vit, 7def(= 21vit) = 25vit = 25 (the 21vit points do not affect hp -> 73,5hp loss)
DH: 3str, 2agi, 2vit, 5def(=15vit) = 22 (the 15vit points do not affect hp -> 52,5hp loss)
BC: ~14agi(speedwise), 4def(=12vit) = 26 (the 12vit points do not affect hp -> 42hp loss)

(I didn't include the aspect of jump bonuses, because they aren't really useful in pvp, which is the aspect we are discussing, obviously.)

Conclusion:
1.) DH & DKH are very well balanced, the DKH gives a greater stat bonus, which results in a bigger hp loss, though.
2.) BC was balanced before releasing the spire, because speed wasn't really THAT useful for pvp fights. But with spire every agi point you have, does count in pvp. Therefore, the spire does not only give a greater pvp stat bonus, it also lowers the hp loss greatly.

To understand completely, what I am saying, I've made up some example builds:
Let's assume, our player wants 19 agi, 12 int and 18def for pvp fighting.
41/17/37/12 with Dragoon Helm results in 44/19/39/12 - 18def
47/19/29/12 with Dark Knight Helm results in 47/19/33/12 - 18def
48/5/42/12 with Bandit Cover results in 48/19/42/12 - 18def

All players end up having 19 agi, 18def and 12 int.
The DKH user has more str but less base hp than the DH user (like I said above, perfectly balanced).
But what about the BC user?
He has more than 47 str and if that isn't enough he also has more base hp then the other 2.

How I would handle it:
The speed bonus of the Bandit Cover must be 10 or lower.
1.) 9agi(speedwise), 4def
2.) 2str, 7agi(speedwise), 3int 3def
... Post your idea

I'd like to hear your opinions :)

[Mystery]

Ok, so many people(including me) think, that it isn't the Spire that is OP'd, but the Bandit Cover.
We covered this already a bit in the spire thread, but it is kind of offtopic there.

Just to clear things completely with the BC thing, I did the math for you guys, to find out which hat is the best,
when you start a new account and base your stats on it (disregarding the fact that a stat looses a bit of its value at some point ).

Points needed to emulate the effect of..

DKH: 4vit, 7def(= 21vit) = 25vit = 25 (the 21vit points do not affect hp -> 73,5hp loss)
DH: 3str, 2agi, 2vit, 5def(=15vit) = 22 (the 15vit points do not affect hp -> 52,5hp loss)
BC: ~14agi(speedwise), 4def(=12vit) = 26 (the 12vit points do not affect hp -> 42hp loss)

(I didn't include the aspect of jump bonuses, because they aren't really useful in pvp, which is the aspect we are discussing, obviously.)

Conclusion:
1.) DH & DKH are very well balanced, the DKH gives a greater stat bonus, which results in a bigger hp loss, though.
2.) BC was balanced before releasing the spire, because speed wasn't really THAT useful for pvp fights. But with spire every agi point you have, does count in pvp. Therefore, the spire does not only give a greater pvp stat bonus, it also lowers the hp loss greatly.

To understand completely, what I am saying, I've made up some example builds:
Let's assume, our player wants 19 agi, 12 int and 18def for pvp fighting.
41/17/37/12 with Dragoon Helm results in 44/19/39/12 - 18def
47/19/29/12 with Dark Knight Helm results in 47/19/33/12 - 18def
48/5/42/12 with Bandit Cover results in 48/19/42/12 - 18def

All players end up having 19 agi, 18def and 12 int.
The DKH user has more str but less base hp than the DH user (like I said above, perfectly balanced).
But what about the BC user?
He has more than 47 str and if that isn't enough he also has more base hp then the other 2.

How I would handle it:
The speed bonus of the Bandit Cover must be 10 or lower.
1.) 9agi(speedwise), 4def
2.) 2str, 7agi(speedwise), 3int 3def
... Post your idea

I'd like to hear your opinions :)

Hold on a second there. Defense should NOT count as 3 VIT points, because it doesn't include the HP and HP regen boost. Count it as one point. In addition to that, Bandit Cover gives the equivalent of 17 AGI, not 14. Also, BC was NOT balanced before releasing the Spire, it still gave too much a boost compared to the other top-level items.

Let me show you my calculations.


Bandit Cover- 17 AGI speed boost equivalent + 4 Defense = 18 point stat boost
Dragoon Helm- 3 STR + 2 AGI + 2 VIT + 5 Defense = 12 point stat boost
Dark Knight Helm- 4 VIT + 8 Defense(one from 4 VIT) = 12 point stat boost

Now compare with the stat results you showed.

41/17/37/12 - 12 Def with Dragoon Helm results in 44/19/39/12 - 18def
47/19/29/12 with Dark Knight Helm results in 47/19/33/12 - 18def
48/5/42/12 with Bandit Cover results in 51/19/42/12 - 18def

Since each build starts out with 107 points + # of Def:

41 + 17 + 37 + 12 + 12 = 119 -> Dragoon Helm -> 44 + 19 + 39 + 12 + 18 = 132 -> 132 - 119 = 13 ≈ 12 (since the hat is taken advantage of to get to the next interval of 6 VIT, adding one Def, this is fully accurate)
47 + 19 + 29 + 12 + 9 = 116 -> Dark Knight Helm -> 47 + 19 + 33 + 12 + 18 = 129 -> 129 - 116 = 13 ≈ 12
48 + 5 + 42 + 12 + 14 = 121 -> Bandit Cover -> 48 + 19 + 42 + 12 + 18 = 139 -> 139 - 121 = 18

For all practical purposes, this should confirm(if thinking about it didn't convince you) that my method of measuring is more accurate.

So this shows just how overpowered the Bandit Cover really is. Needless to say, I voted yes.

[Seifer]

Can we please consider that anyone using a DKH will use it effectively, and thus gain a total of 9 defense from it, not 7.

[Mystery]

Can we please consider that anyone using a DKH will use it effectively, and thus gain a total of 9 defense from it, not 7.

That was factored into both CherryPie's and my post; take a looksie again.

EDIT: I'd like to see the Bandit Cover give +6 AGI, a speed boost equivalent of +3 AGI, and +3 Def. That puts it on par with Dragoon Helm and Dark Knight Helm.

[Seifer]

Can we please consider that anyone using a DKH will use it effectively, and thus gain a total of 9 defense from it, not 7.

That was factored into both CherryPie's and my post; take a looksie again.

EDIT: I'd like to see the Bandit Cover give +6 AGI, a speed boost equivalent of +3 AGI, and +3 Def. That puts it on par with Dragoon Helm and Dark Knight Helm.

You said it gives +8.

[Ceroblitz]

Hold on a second there. Defense should NOT count as 3 VIT points, because it doesn't include the HP and HP regen boost. Count it as one point. In addition to that, Bandit Cover gives the equivalent of 17 AGI, not 14. Also, BC was NOT balanced before releasing the Spire, it still gave too much a boost compared to the other top-level items.

Bandit cover gives the speed boost equivalent of 14 agi, I've tested it.

It hasn't been balanced for well over a year so, why bring up this topic anyways?

Besides, counting def as a single accumulation is quite small, so in addition to all stats that the hats give, (including jump because If it gives a stat, that stat is well dang there, but since you guys dislike it, meh :I) counting 1 defense as 1.5 points might balance things out. However, It is quite true that the BC is a very powerful hat to the slower people.
DKH- 4 vit, 7 def (defense =  10.5 + 1.5= 12 + 4 vit = 16)

BC- 14 agi speed boost total, 4 defense ( defense = 6 points, + 14 agi speed boost total = 20)

DH- 3 str + 2 vit +2 agi + 5 def (defense = 7.5 points, +7 other stats, if you count jump +1) (14.5 )(15.5)

Now those are the flat out bases that i think they should give. HOWEVER, DKH and DH can be BUILT with stat builds.
and dkh sets points in a single form of stat as you all know.
so with stat builds,
DKH = 17.5
DH =17 (no jump 16)
BC = 20 still
What I thin is that BC should be nerfed in speed slightly, if its going to keep its defense. But the pvping skill all depends on how the stats the players lay out and how they pvp.

Some hats will always be better than others, in one way or another.

[Forum]

Bandit Cover used give a speed of 16 but it seems during a hidden update or something Meiun changed it to the Speed of 14. I'm certain though that it was 16 as i tested it with people before..

[Seifer]

I think BC should definitely get a DEF nerf. I'd take it down to 1.

[Mystery]

Bandit Cover used give a speed of 16 but it seems during a hidden update or something Meiun changed it to the Speed of 14. I'm certain though that it was 16 as i tested it with people before..

Same here, I remember it being faster. Guess I'll have to edit my post then. Still far stronger than the other top-level hats.

It hasn't been balanced for well over a year so, why bring up this topic anyways?

That's like saying BP's oil spill had occurred 2 weeks ago, why fix it? Because the problem will get worse if you leave it alone.

Besides, counting def as a single accumulation is quite small, so in addition to all stats that the hats give, (including jump because If it gives a stat, that stat is well dang there, but since you guys dislike it, meh :I) counting 1 defense as 1.5 points might balance things out. However, It is quite true that the BC is a very powerful hat to the slower people.
DKH- 4 vit, 7 def (defense =  10.5 + 1.5= 12 + 4 vit = 16)

BC- 14 agi speed boost total, 4 defense ( defense = 6 points, + 14 agi speed boost total = 20)

DH- 3 str + 2 vit +2 agi + 5 def (defense = 7.5 points, +7 other stats, if you count jump +1) (14.5 )(15.5)

Now those are the flat out bases that i think they should give. HOWEVER, DKH and DH can be BUILT with stat builds.
and dkh sets points in a single form of stat as you all know.
so with stat builds,
DKH = 17.5
DH =17 (no jump 16)
BC = 20 still

That's a weak argument. Defense shouldn't count 1.5 stats, if we do that, why not count VIT at 2.5 stats, STR as 2 stats, AGI as 1.5 stats, and INT as 1 stats? The goal of stats is to balance them, not put them on separate pedestals.

Considering the calculations you made, the fact that DH and DKH do not always perfectly work to bump up the next 6 increment of VIT, since that's the player's choice, the fact that jumping is near completely worthless in PVP(and since jump can't be measured as accurately as speed relative to stats because the increments are far more different) and thus, should not be counted as a stat, and since your Defense 'additions' seem varying, I don't view them as valid.

Some hats will always be better than others, in one way or another.

There's a distinction between better and blatantly OP. Besides, all of the end-level hat choices should all be closely balanced, otherwise, the weaker ones become much less valuable.

Can we please consider that anyone using a DKH will use it effectively, and thus gain a total of 9 defense from it, not 7.

That was factored into both CherryPie's and my post; take a looksie again.

EDIT: I'd like to see the Bandit Cover give +6 AGI, a speed boost equivalent of +3 AGI, and +3 Def. That puts it on par with Dragoon Helm and Dark Knight Helm.

You said it gives +8.

That's because technically it does. +3 VIT gives another Defense, so while the stat boost might be +4 VIT, +7 Defense, it EQUATES to +4 VIT, +8 Defense.

I think BC should definitely get a DEF nerf. I'd take it down to 1.

I'd like to see a bigger speed nerf first. Namely, under 10 AGI speed.

[Ceroblitz]

That's like saying BP's oil spill had occurred 2 weeks ago, why fix it? Because the problem will get worse if you leave it alone.
That's a weak argument. Defense shouldn't count 1.5 stats, if we do that, why not count VIT at 2.5 stats, STR as 2 stats, AGI as 1.5 stats, and INT as 1 stats? The goal of stats is to balance them, not put them on separate pedestals.

Considering the calculations you made, the fact that DH and DKH do not always perfectly work to bump up the next 6 increment of VIT, since that's the player's choice, the fact that jumping is near completely worthless in PVP(and since jump can't be measured as accurately as speed relative to stats because the increments are far more different) and thus, should not be counted as a stat, and since your Defense 'additions' seem varying, I don't view them as valid.

Def is not a stat that could not be gained like vit, agi, int, or str, it counts as a part of 3 vitality, just like hp regain counts as a part of 6 vitality, hence, why I listed it as 1.5 stats (why do you think that cherry listed it as 3 stats?).
The final additions I wrote were the stats to achieve the most amount of defense you can with those hats. The other ones above it are the hats alone. Maybe you should not tackle everything head on and probably balance out everything before you show how overpowered or plain better a hat is. If it was "Blatantly OP", how come no one ever said it was "Blatantly OP" 1 year ago? Weaker hats will stay weaker and stronger hats stay stronger. Which also shows that the crown of Specialboy's is now worse than the DKH.

Anyways, yes, the BC is overpowered, and I think the best re balance would be what Seifer said, so it won't be so powerful in pvp.
Also, relating something that damages the environment and endangers life to something like "stat balancing" is quite of ridiculous.

[Mystery]

Def is not a stat that could not be gained like vit, agi, int, or str, it counts as a part of 3 vitality, just like hp regain counts as a part of 6 vitality, hence, why I listed it as 1.5 stats (why do you think that cherry listed it as 3 stats?).

If HP regen was to be boosted by a hat, I would still count it as 1 stat, because it DOES NOT INCLUDE the other perks of a stat. It does take more VIT point to get to that stat, but because it does much less than the actual stat, I count it as one. Cherry listed it as 3 stats simply because it takes 3 VIT to get one Defense, but I told him why that wouldn't work, and he modified to show the HP and HP regen loss, thus there's no longer an issue.

The final additions I wrote were the stats to achieve the most amount of defense you can with those hats. The other ones above it are the hats alone. Maybe you should not tackle everything head on and probably balance out everything before you show how overpowered or plain better a hat is.

I did not state once I was referring to the bottom additions, I was referring to the top ones. I can read.

If it was "Blatantly OP", how come no one ever said it was "Blatantly OP" 1 year ago? Weaker hats will stay weaker and stronger hats stay stronger. Which also shows that the crown of Specialboy's is now worse than the DKH.

I can say the same for Spire Dagger, how come people didn't say it was blatantly OP a long time ago? Because it was not brought to attention. As for Specialboy, I didn't like that either, and I would personally prefer that the Gaia Crown be changed to a +11 Defense boost, as well as a STR increase in the Blade Crown to +10 STR. Meiun didn't change it, I had nothing to do with it. It probably had something to do with the fact that Specialboy/Jude never plays anymore(that one time at the tourney is an exception).

Anyways, yes, the BC is overpowered, and I think the best re balance would be what Seifer said, so it won't be so powerful in pvp.

The main problem with BC is the speed boost, not the Defense boost, although that is pretty high too. Like I said before, I thin the best stats for the nerfed BC would be +6 AGI, +3 AGI speed equivalent, and +3 Defense.

Also, relating something that damages the environment and endangers life to something like "stat balancing" is quite of ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

EDIT: The problem I have with your argument is that the BC is better than all the other end-game hats, true, but the gap of boosting is so big that it's overpowered and much more worth your time to use BC.

Let's make a supposition that it is just 'simply better'. It's SO better that in comparison to the other end-game hats, why have any others at all? Why not have just one 'better' hat that COMPLETELY DWARFS all the others, getting rid of end-game balance? Why not completely wreck the already maladjusted middlegame to end-game item gap even more with a semi-rare item invalidating others and even beating crowns in its boost? Why not make Stick Online rely even more on getting that one 'better' drop, and less on skill?

..Because a game needs balance, not 'simply better'/overpowered hats.

[Ceroblitz]

Yes, I know, but thats a ridiculous analogy and does not make too much sense.

Defense is a more useful "stat" than 1 normal stat point still, so that is why I would count it as more than 1. Thats why DKH added up stat wise using def as 1 "stat" as so will not make up a such great hat, when it is a quite useful hat.
4 stats of defense can reduce a lot of damage depending on how much is taken, and 8 is quite a lot, even with the soft cap.
BC is a rare drop, focused mainly on one thing, but also has defense. DKH is a rare drop, focused on Defense. DH is not so rare, but useful and a balanced pvp hat.
If you remove the defense from bc, it will make a bigger change than you think. Why do you think it was given X amount of speed in the first place?
BBE doesn't even begin to compare to BC, speed or defense wise. I'm pretty sure the defense is all that is needed to be removed, because hitting a person with BC without the 4 defense would definitely show a bigger change.

Edit- You edit a lot, Mystery, you should sum up everything in 1 post before posting :I.  Why do you think SO 3 is being made then? That would answer your question..

[Lucifer]

Ya'll, stop being spr srs bsns. You're picking apart each-others sentences like it's an argument, instead of a combined effort to provide a factual basis to whether or not BC is overpowered compared DKH and DH. Just tone it down a wee bit.

Anyways, I would agree with Mystery that BC should be reduced to ~10 speed bonus. Perhaps just combine Black Bandit Ears and Bandit Cover, instead of Bandit Cover and then some. About the defense, I dunno, maybe reduce it by one? The speeds the main issue here, as one of the main reasons for calling for its removal is that it further reduces the need for agility, lowering the defense starts to make its PvP viability questionable. I mean, even if the bonuses add up to a higher level than DKH or DH, agility is far less useful than Str or Vit.

[Ceroblitz]

Maybe a better way is to have a "pvp nerf"

When you have pvp on, items get nerfed, when off, they go back to normal state.

So when you have pvp on bc gets slower, etc, and other hats / weapons get adjusted for pvp, making items valuable for pve and such.

[ARTgames]

I have never used a BC or have really studied it. But if what some of you say is true it does look over powered a bit.