Death.. Then what?

[Torch]

Yeah, that whole boulder business seemed like a pretty flimsy argument to me, too.

@Jake: Well, that wasn't necessarily directed at you specifically.  

Alright, I wasn't sure. I don't want people getting the idea that I believe all these points that I bring up (although maybe I should make that clearer).

One question I have to atheists out there is this; Has the universe always existed? How were the rules of the universe created? Is it logical to think that intelligent beings were created through random process? How were these processes put into movement in the first place? No matter how many theories people will dream up, there will always be the question of "well, if that happened, what started that process?". The big bang uses the rules of the universe, so that's not viable. Unless you want to tell me that the rules of the universe have always been there, which would be the same as saying "well, I don't know, I'm just guessing". To me, that has less logic than believing in an omnipotent being. Everything that we know was created by something. We were created by our parents. Humans were created by evolution. Our galaxy was created by the big bang. And this loop seems to be abruptly halted by the idea that it all just exists. I choose to go with the belief that a higher being is the next factor in the endless process of creation, simply because I see more evidence for it than for our illogical, unexplained, existence.

I choose to admit that I don't know how the universe was created and not jump to conclusions. As far as we know, something cannot be created from nothing. What we know is limited. It isn't fair to say that because science's theory is flawed, a god must exist. There are definitely things about the universe that we don't know yet, and with a lack of knowledge, it's hard to find a logical answer. There's nothing wrong with admitting you don't know how the universe was created and falling back on a flawed concept like god isn't helping anyone find the real answer.

[Jake]

Yeah, that whole boulder business seemed like a pretty flimsy argument to me, too.

@Jake: Well, that wasn't necessarily directed at you specifically.  

Alright, I wasn't sure. I don't want people getting the idea that I believe all these points that I bring up (although maybe I should make that clearer).

One question I have to atheists out there is this; Has the universe always existed? How were the rules of the universe created? Is it logical to think that intelligent beings were created through random process? How were these processes put into movement in the first place? No matter how many theories people will dream up, there will always be the question of "well, if that happened, what started that process?". The big bang uses the rules of the universe, so that's not viable. Unless you want to tell me that the rules of the universe have always been there, which would be the same as saying "well, I don't know, I'm just guessing". To me, that has less logic than believing in an omnipotent being. Everything that we know was created by something. We were created by our parents. Humans were created by evolution. Our galaxy was created by the big bang. And this loop seems to be abruptly halted by the idea that it all just exists. I choose to go with the belief that a higher being is the next factor in the endless process of creation, simply because I see more evidence for it than for our illogical, unexplained, existence.

I choose to admit that I don't know how the universe was created and not jump to conclusions. As far as we know, something cannot be created from nothing. What we know is limited. It isn't fair to say that because science's theory is flawed, a god must exist. There are definitely things about the universe that we don't know yet, and with a lack of knowledge, it's hard to find a logical answer. There's nothing wrong with admitting you don't know how the universe was created and falling back on a flawed concept like god isn't helping anyone find the real answer.

I find it funny that you find the idea of God a flawed concept, when I have seen little evidence to support that claim (religions view of God would not be valid). On the latter, the concept of a universe created from nothing is about as flawed as they come. It is my belief that the amount of knowledge we possess will never allow us to explain the universe's existence, simply because we are trying to explain something that can't be explained. We can't explain things that defy logic. You have the belief that there are a multitude of scenarios of how the universe came to be. I am in the mindset that there are two possible causes. Either the universe came from nothing, or it was created by something. I simply choose to follow the second option because it appears more logical to me. The first option is simply an impossibility that can never be proven to be correct (even with all the knowledge in the universe). When you say I jump to conclusions by believing in God, I would look at it as a process of logical deduction. There are two possible answers, and one of them can't be correct. I choose the other one. Simple as that.

[Mystery]

Yeah, that whole boulder business seemed like a pretty flimsy argument to me, too.

@Jake: Well, that wasn't necessarily directed at you specifically.  

Alright, I wasn't sure. I don't want people getting the idea that I believe all these points that I bring up (although maybe I should make that clearer).

One question I have to atheists out there is this; Has the universe always existed? How were the rules of the universe created? Is it logical to think that intelligent beings were created through random process? How were these processes put into movement in the first place? No matter how many theories people will dream up, there will always be the question of "well, if that happened, what started that process?". The big bang uses the rules of the universe, so that's not viable. Unless you want to tell me that the rules of the universe have always been there, which would be the same as saying "well, I don't know, I'm just guessing". To me, that has less logic than believing in an omnipotent being. Everything that we know was created by something. We were created by our parents. Humans were created by evolution. Our galaxy was created by the big bang. And this loop seems to be abruptly halted by the idea that it all just exists. I choose to go with the belief that a higher being is the next factor in the endless process of creation, simply because I see more evidence for it than for our illogical, unexplained, existence.

I choose to admit that I don't know how the universe was created and not jump to conclusions. As far as we know, something cannot be created from nothing. What we know is limited. It isn't fair to say that because science's theory is flawed, a god must exist. There are definitely things about the universe that we don't know yet, and with a lack of knowledge, it's hard to find a logical answer. There's nothing wrong with admitting you don't know how the universe was created and falling back on a flawed concept like god isn't helping anyone find the real answer.

I find it funny that you find the idea of God a flawed concept, when I have seen little evidence to support that claim 1- Are you kidding me? Look at Lucifer's unanswered post. Slavery isn't a sin, apparently. But it is one of the most immoral things you can do. How do you explain that? Because it wasn't a sin to white men at the time the Bible was written. And it was written by man. Makes sense, a LOT more than slavery not being a sin. And there's tons of more evidence than that. On the latter, the concept of a universe created from nothing is about as flawed as they come. 2- Like Torch said, you can't say that just because science's theory is currently flawed by lack of info. It is my belief that the amount of knowledge we possess will never allow us to explain the universe's existence, simply because we are trying to explain something that can't be explained. We can't explain things that defy logic. You have the belief that there are a multitude of scenarios of how the universe came to be. I am in the mindset that there are two possible causes. Either the universe came from nothing, or it was created by something. 3- There's many more possible scenarios than that...(for example, the universe could've just ALWAYS existed and reformed, which sounds even more likely than God....)The first option is simply an impossibility that can never be proven to be correct (even with all the knowledge in the universe)  4- See number 2. When you say I jump to conclusions by believing in God, I would look at it as a process of logical deduction. There are two possible answers, and one of them can't be correct. I choose the other one. Simple as that. 5- There aren't only 2, but they are 2 that people believe in. But that can go either way(between choosing answers).

I don't know how the universe was created fully, but scientists still search for more information. The Big Bang/other science theories ARE flawed, but they make more sense than any religious theory to me. There's always more knowledge to be gained, and compared to all of the info out there, we know about as much as an amoeba. Give us time to fully find the answer. We will eventually.

[Jake]

Yeah, that whole boulder business seemed like a pretty flimsy argument to me, too.

@Jake: Well, that wasn't necessarily directed at you specifically.  

Alright, I wasn't sure. I don't want people getting the idea that I believe all these points that I bring up (although maybe I should make that clearer).

One question I have to atheists out there is this; Has the universe always existed? How were the rules of the universe created? Is it logical to think that intelligent beings were created through random process? How were these processes put into movement in the first place? No matter how many theories people will dream up, there will always be the question of "well, if that happened, what started that process?". The big bang uses the rules of the universe, so that's not viable. Unless you want to tell me that the rules of the universe have always been there, which would be the same as saying "well, I don't know, I'm just guessing". To me, that has less logic than believing in an omnipotent being. Everything that we know was created by something. We were created by our parents. Humans were created by evolution. Our galaxy was created by the big bang. And this loop seems to be abruptly halted by the idea that it all just exists. I choose to go with the belief that a higher being is the next factor in the endless process of creation, simply because I see more evidence for it than for our illogical, unexplained, existence.

I choose to admit that I don't know how the universe was created and not jump to conclusions. As far as we know, something cannot be created from nothing. What we know is limited. It isn't fair to say that because science's theory is flawed, a god must exist. There are definitely things about the universe that we don't know yet, and with a lack of knowledge, it's hard to find a logical answer. There's nothing wrong with admitting you don't know how the universe was created and falling back on a flawed concept like god isn't helping anyone find the real answer.

I find it funny that you find the idea of God a flawed concept, when I have seen little evidence to support that claim 1- Are you kidding me? Look at Lucifer's unanswered post. Slavery isn't a sin, apparently. But it is one of the most immoral things you can do. How do you explain that? Because it wasn't a sin to white men at the time the Bible was written. And it was written by man. Makes sense, a LOT more than slavery not being a sin. And there's tons of more evidence than that. On the latter, the concept of a universe created from nothing is about as flawed as they come. 2- Like Torch said, you can't say that just because science's theory is currently flawed by lack of info. It is my belief that the amount of knowledge we possess will never allow us to explain the universe's existence, simply because we are trying to explain something that can't be explained. We can't explain things that defy logic. You have the belief that there are a multitude of scenarios of how the universe came to be. I am in the mindset that there are two possible causes. Either the universe came from nothing, or it was created by something. 3- There's many more possible scenarios than that...(for example, the universe could've just ALWAYS existed and reformed, which sounds even more likely than God....)The first option is simply an impossibility that can never be proven to be correct (even with all the knowledge in the universe)  4- See number 2. When you say I jump to conclusions by believing in God, I would look at it as a process of logical deduction. There are two possible answers, and one of them can't be correct. I choose the other one. Simple as that. 5- There aren't only 2, but they are 2 that people believe in. But that can go either way(between choosing answers).

I don't know how the universe was created fully, but scientists still search for more information. The Big Bang/other science theories ARE flawed, but they make more sense than any religious theory to me. There's always more knowledge to be gained, and compared to all of the info out there, we know about as much as an amoeba. Give us time to fully find the answer. We will eventually.

I'm saying that it's impossible to find the answer through pure logic. No matter how complex our theories get, we'll never have the definitive answer to how we were created simply because our existence is illogical.

[Mystery]

Yeah, that whole boulder business seemed like a pretty flimsy argument to me, too.

@Jake: Well, that wasn't necessarily directed at you specifically.  

Alright, I wasn't sure. I don't want people getting the idea that I believe all these points that I bring up (although maybe I should make that clearer).

One question I have to atheists out there is this; Has the universe always existed? How were the rules of the universe created? Is it logical to think that intelligent beings were created through random process? How were these processes put into movement in the first place? No matter how many theories people will dream up, there will always be the question of "well, if that happened, what started that process?". The big bang uses the rules of the universe, so that's not viable. Unless you want to tell me that the rules of the universe have always been there, which would be the same as saying "well, I don't know, I'm just guessing". To me, that has less logic than believing in an omnipotent being. Everything that we know was created by something. We were created by our parents. Humans were created by evolution. Our galaxy was created by the big bang. And this loop seems to be abruptly halted by the idea that it all just exists. I choose to go with the belief that a higher being is the next factor in the endless process of creation, simply because I see more evidence for it than for our illogical, unexplained, existence.

I choose to admit that I don't know how the universe was created and not jump to conclusions. As far as we know, something cannot be created from nothing. What we know is limited. It isn't fair to say that because science's theory is flawed, a god must exist. There are definitely things about the universe that we don't know yet, and with a lack of knowledge, it's hard to find a logical answer. There's nothing wrong with admitting you don't know how the universe was created and falling back on a flawed concept like god isn't helping anyone find the real answer.

I find it funny that you find the idea of God a flawed concept, when I have seen little evidence to support that claim 1- Are you kidding me? Look at Lucifer's unanswered post. Slavery isn't a sin, apparently. But it is one of the most immoral things you can do. How do you explain that? Because it wasn't a sin to white men at the time the Bible was written. And it was written by man. Makes sense, a LOT more than slavery not being a sin. And there's tons of more evidence than that. On the latter, the concept of a universe created from nothing is about as flawed as they come. 2- Like Torch said, you can't say that just because science's theory is currently flawed by lack of info. It is my belief that the amount of knowledge we possess will never allow us to explain the universe's existence, simply because we are trying to explain something that can't be explained. We can't explain things that defy logic. You have the belief that there are a multitude of scenarios of how the universe came to be. I am in the mindset that there are two possible causes. Either the universe came from nothing, or it was created by something. 3- There's many more possible scenarios than that...(for example, the universe could've just ALWAYS existed and reformed, which sounds even more likely than God....)The first option is simply an impossibility that can never be proven to be correct (even with all the knowledge in the universe)  4- See number 2. When you say I jump to conclusions by believing in God, I would look at it as a process of logical deduction. There are two possible answers, and one of them can't be correct. I choose the other one. Simple as that. 5- There aren't only 2, but they are 2 that people believe in. But that can go either way(between choosing answers).

I don't know how the universe was created fully, but scientists still search for more information. The Big Bang/other science theories ARE flawed, but they make more sense than any religious theory to me. There's always more knowledge to be gained, and compared to all of the info out there, we know about as much as an amoeba. Give us time to fully find the answer. We will eventually.

I'm saying that it's impossible to find the answer through pure logic. No matter how complex our theories get, we'll never have the definitive answer to how we were created simply because our existence is illogical.

Well, I agree with you there. Our existence doesn't make much sense. Still, I'd like to think it could be explained it some way, but we may never know.

[Chaos]

Our existence, illogical?  Hardly.  Purposeless, perhaps, but hardly illogical.  We were created at random.  The situation was just right, and life was formed.  While I might hear some religious-believers scoff right now, let me teach you something about statistics and perception.  Say you have a BILLION-sided dice.  That may be equivalent to the chances of the situation that life is created, correct?  The chances are quite low, correct?  Now, taking all the Planets in ALL the Systems in ALL the Galaxies in ALL the Universe.  Let's roll the dice once for EACH of those BILLIONS of planets.  Suddenly, the chances of rolling aren't so slim, are they? 

Secondly, perception.  What are the chances we'd end up perfectly like this, you may ask?  I'd tell you that your question is IRRELEVANT.  Chances have nothing to do with it.  Perception, my dear friends.  You could be an intelligent baboon, and be asking yourself the same question.  Why?  Because you've never experienced anything else, so you assume that your current form is the 'proper' one.  You could have easily come out any other way and be asking yourself the same question, and be none-the-wiser. 

Anyway, I must say, Jake, that's an awfully bold statement to make.  Making a statement about how we'll never find the truth, that is.  We're closer to an answer than we were 20 years ago, and they were closer to an answer than they were 100 years ago.  Logically speaking, as long as progress is made, there would likely be an end-point.  While the Big Bang theory may be flawed, it at least has more factual evidence than God making everything.   :-X

Also, might I point out that your "Something must be created from something" argument could just as easily be pointed at God himself?  If something MUST have created the universe, shouldn't something MUST have created God?  After all, it is illogical to assume that something was created from nothing, right?  And if it is your argument that God has always existed, then couldn't the exact same argument then be reversed onto the universe?  Why can God exist for all eternity, but not the Universe?

[Mystery]

Our existence, illogical?  Hardly.  Purposeless, perhaps, but hardly illogical.

That's what I meant. It doesn't make much sense to me that we'll/we'd never accomplish anything TRUELY outstanding in the universe(say, that it would affect a huge chunk of the universe). You'd think over time, we'd do something huge..

EDIT: Unless we're just a species doomed to not do much..

[Jake]

Our existence, illogical?  Hardly.  Purposeless, perhaps, but hardly illogical.  We were created at random.  The situation was just right, and life was formed.  While I might hear some religious-believers scoff right now, let me teach you something about statistics and perception.  Say you have a BILLION-sided dice.  That may be equivalent to the chances of the situation that life is created, correct?  The chances are quite low, correct?  Now, taking all the Planets in ALL the Systems in ALL the Galaxies in ALL the Universe.  Let's roll the dice once for EACH of those BILLIONS of planets.  Suddenly, the chances of rolling aren't so slim, are they? 

Secondly, perception.  What are the chances we'd end up perfectly like this, you may ask?  I'd tell you that your question is IRRELEVANT.  Chances have nothing to do with it.  Perception, my dear friends.  You could be an intelligent baboon, and be asking yourself the same question.  Why?  Because you've never experienced anything else, so you assume that your current form is the 'proper' one.  You could have easily come out any other way and be asking yourself the same question, and be none-the-wiser. 

This argument does not contradict my beliefs (although I believe you think it might). The reason being that something had to allow us the minuscule chance to be created. Your statement starts with the assumption that something already existed to create the chance for our existence. This means that your argument (while completely logical and something I would agree with completely) is simply a sub-category of what I'm arguing.

Anyway, I must say, Jake, that's an awfully bold statement to make.  Making a statement about how we'll never find the truth, that is.  We're closer to an answer than we were 20 years ago, and they were closer to an answer than they were 100 years ago.  Logically speaking, as long as progress is made, there would likely be an end-point.  While the Big Bang theory may be flawed, it at least has more factual evidence than God making everything.   Lips sealed

I can see how you might think this. The reason we'll never find the reason to our existence is because it's impossible to answer the question without saying "and then this big thingy magically appeared". In the end, even with all the knowledge you can imagine, you pretty much have to assume that everything was just there, and that's something very illogical to me.

Also, might I point out that your "Something must be created from something" argument could just as easily be pointed at God himself?  If something MUST have created the universe, shouldn't something MUST have created God?  After all, it is illogical to assume that something was created from nothing, right?  And if it is your argument that God has always existed, then couldn't the exact same argument then be reversed onto the universe?  Why can God exist for all eternity, but not the Universe?

I'm glad to finally be answering this question, since I've been waiting all day for someone to bring it up. If you believe in the concept of God, then it is completely logical to believe that he has existed for eternity. It's a simple matter of him being above the laws of science and what we consider to be logical. It is also my firm belief that unintelligence cannot create intelligence unless it was designed to. Therefore, something like evolution could occur because it's original creator intended it, but it cannot simply exist of it's own accord.

[Torch]

@Jake
First off, "something created from something" isn't the same as a god. A god is implied to be a conscious being. What logic is there to lead you to believe that a conscious being created everything?

Second, to believe that something is above the laws of science and logic is more flawed than the theory that the universe was created of nothing. You could use that same argument to say that the Big Bang was above the laws of science and logic.

Third, we don't know that everything must have a starting point or that something can't be created from nothing, we can only assume that based on what we know right now. As Chaos said, we continually learn and science is always progressing. It isn't unreasonable to think that we will eventually find the answer and make sense of it.

[Chaos]

"It is also my firm belief that unintelligence cannot create intelligence unless it was designed to."

Therefore, God couldn't exist.   :-\

[Mr Pwnage]

Ummm, without reading all what has been posted above because I don't have the time...I'd like to point out a flaw I've always had in my mind about the idea of God/Biblical stories:

Has anybody noticed, when pictured in practically any religion...God is always depicted as a human? God usually has somewhat a supernatural appearance to him, but he always looks human. This makes no sense to me whatsoever, because many things existed on Earth before humans...so how than does it make sense that God has a human like appearance? Just wondering what you all think of that?

[Pat]

You're an idiot Pwnage, religion doesn't teach the theory of evolution. God created the world and everything in it, even though evolution is pretty much proven.

[Cactuscat222]

First off, Mr. Pwnage - the bible states that "God made us in His own image". This is why God is depicted in a 'human' form.

Second @ Chaos - I don't find nothing randomly turning into something logical, by any means what so ever. If absolutely NOTHING existed, how could ANYTHING have ever occurred? Its completely illogical, no doubt about that. Additionally, about Jake's statement that "unintelligence cannot create intelligence unless it was designed to." does not mean God couldn't exist either - Jake's point was that God has always been there, he wasn't created. He is above the laws of man and our comprehension.

[Mr Pwnage]

You're an idiot Pwnage, religion doesn't teach the theory of evolution. God created the world and everything in it, even though evolution is pretty much proven.

And your a flaming troll Pat. I pose a question and get called an idiot? Not to mention you must not even have read what I wrote. I didn't mention a thing about evolution in my whole post, so your pulling that out of your ass.

@Cactuscat
Oh, I was unaware...about the "God made us in His own image". Thanks for clearing that bit up...not that I really believe much of what is in the Bible anyways...but I guess that justifies why god is depicted as us if you believe in the Bible. And I'm not shooting down that there are no true things inside the Bible, but many I do not believe to be true. And you all realize this stuff was written by people who drank water with high levels of lead in it, along with many other neurotoxins that people were exposed to back then.

[Pat]

That was a friendly fire... You said that other animals were around before humans, I assumed you were talking about evolution. Sorry...