Death.. Then what?

[Jake]

Christianity is based on the assumption that Jesus wasn't lying.

Atheism is based on the assumption that you're not living in one big dream world. Any belief (or lack of one) is based off assumptions. It's the credibility of those assumptions that's important..

"do you not find it hard to commit your life to the assumption that Joseph Smith wasn't lying? Your entire religion is based on one mans word"
My point was that Christianity works the same way. I don't see how Jesus has more credibility than Joseph Smith.

Yes, I got your point. You never mentioned your beliefs on the credibility of Jesus compared to Joseph in your original post, and although I could have deducted what you were thinking, I preferred to act on the content of the post and not your beliefs. Doing the latter could have evoked a response from you regarding my ignorance and assumptions, and I didn't feel like leaving myself open for a nut shot.

I think it's kind of silly to argue between faiths. It's all a matter of he said/she said. No one can ever prove that their religion is "right". It is simply right for them. I say live and let live. Be Mormon, Christian, Muslim, Jewish... whatever. So long as you don't tell other people that what they believe is wrong.

Right, I completely agree. Sadly, some of the anti-theists in this topic wouldn't agree with you. I've seen way too many open insults towards religion and anyone who follows it. It's become common to tell people that they're religion is wrong and I've even heard statements of banishing all religion. Then the same people go ahead and complain about religion imposing their beliefs on others. Banishing the free will to believe what you want to believe is about the worst way to obtain peace, and accepting other people's beliefs is the necessary step that we must take.

I mean, you're saying that the Mormon religion is accused of altering the Bible when in reality the Christian religion altered or appended the Jewish religious scriptures. It's really not fair for anyone to say they hold the rights to any of that. Sure, they are sacred texts, but over the many many centuries that have past, things have been altered just through translation error alone. If someone came along and says, "You know what, I want to change some of this around, maybe add on a bit here and there... anyone who agrees with me can join me..." So what? Go right ahead. Anyone should have the right to do that if they want. And anyone has the right to agree with them or not. If they disagree it doesn't mean they have to persecute the person though. Let them make their changes and believe what they want to believe. Even if it's that those changes were ordered by God. There's no way to prove that it wasn't.

PS-I would also like to point out that this is by far the most civil topic on religion I've ever seen.

Was this post directed towards me or Hamster? I would agree that Christians are much like Mormons in terms of altering the bible, but there are some very important differences between the two. Mormons have made direct revisions to restore it, while the Christians (apart from translations) have added on the new testament because of Jesus death, while still attempting to keep the old testament in it's original text. I think it's important to consider the reasons for altering the bible though, to help determine whether or not it's possible that the revisions could still be considered the word of God. The dead sea scrolls have always been a foundation for Christians (and probably Jews, although I cannot vouch) to show evidence that their bible is being translated directly from the original texts. It helps dispel some evidence that claims the word of God to be badly damaged and changed through time.

[ARTgames]

Right, I completely agree. Sadly, some of the anti-theists in this topic wouldn't agree with you. I've seen way too many open insults towards religion and anyone who follows it. It's become common to tell people that they're religion is wrong and I've even heard statements of banishing all religion. Then the same people go ahead and complain about religion imposing their beliefs on others. Banishing the free will to believe what you want to believe is about the worst way to obtain peace, and accepting other people's beliefs is the necessary step that we must take.

hey this is the only reason why there is beliefs. Its kind of like 2 + 2 = 4. If some one else says 2 + 2 = 5 your most likely going to say they are wrong. Same thing here but instead of the question being 2 + 2 its does god exists or what is the meaning of life or whats after death. And people feel so passionate about there 2 + 2 = 4 or 5 or what ever that they call the other person wrong because to them it looks so clear.

when really we "dont know" as a whole.

Now the thing that makes math and this different is that's its really difficult for some one to have the same outcome as some one else. Mainly because its not as simple as taking 2 rocks and 2 rocks and putting it together and calling it four. You half to understand there culture, history, commonly accepted behaviors, ect. When they add all that up they get something different from what you do. Almost ever person get a different answer.

And you cant say any of them are right because that's an opinion made by that person and to them its true. its like arguing who some one is. Now that does not mean you cant influence a person into thinking something close to your results. It happens all the time. The problem has variables in it and they can be changed.

Now weather or not you bleave in randomness we are all different and will most likely will never get the same results exactly.  And there going to still people who see that and think it needs too be the same when really the answer its self....

ill finish later. im not sure what the answer is. my mind is tired.

[Torch]

Right, I completely agree. Sadly, some of the anti-theists in this topic wouldn't agree with you. I've seen way too many open insults towards religion and anyone who follows it. It's become common to tell people that they're religion is wrong and I've even heard statements of banishing all religion. Then the same people go ahead and complain about religion imposing their beliefs on others. Banishing the free will to believe what you want to believe is about the worst way to obtain peace, and accepting other people's beliefs is the necessary step that we must take.

hey this is the only reason why there is beliefs. Its kind of like 2 + 2 = 4. If some one else says 2 + 2 = 5 your most likely going to say they are wrong. Same thing here but instead of the question being 2 + 2 its does god exists or what is the meaning of life or whats after death. And people feel so passionate about there 2 + 2 = 4 or 5 or what ever that they call the other person wrong because to them it looks so clear.

It isn't like that. It's more like some people acknowledging that we don't know and not making assumptions, while others are blinded by the belief that they do know. Atheists are the people that see it as an unknown and use what they do know to try and figure it out. Religious people don't have the will to find out, so instead they just put their faith in whatever prophet or book attempts to give them the answer.

[Lingus]

I think it's kind of silly to argue between faiths. It's all a matter of he said/she said. No one can ever prove that their religion is "right". It is simply right for them. I say live and let live. Be Mormon, Christian, Muslim, Jewish... whatever. So long as you don't tell other people that what they believe is wrong.

Right, I completely agree. Sadly, some of the anti-theists in this topic wouldn't agree with you. I've seen way too many open insults towards religion and anyone who follows it. It's become common to tell people that they're religion is wrong and I've even heard statements of banishing all religion. Then the same people go ahead and complain about religion imposing their beliefs on others. Banishing the free will to believe what you want to believe is about the worst way to obtain peace, and accepting other people's beliefs is the necessary step that we must take.

To be honest, I don't think it's fair to point out any one group when talking about this. Every group is guilty of it to some extent. It depends on the person. There are extremists in any group, and inevitably because of the extent of their belief in their personal point of view, they are going to lash out against people who believe something different. It doesn't matter what they believe in. That's my point.

I mean, you're saying that the Mormon religion is accused of altering the Bible when in reality the Christian religion altered or appended the Jewish religious scriptures. It's really not fair for anyone to say they hold the rights to any of that. Sure, they are sacred texts, but over the many many centuries that have past, things have been altered just through translation error alone. If someone came along and says, "You know what, I want to change some of this around, maybe add on a bit here and there... anyone who agrees with me can join me..." So what? Go right ahead. Anyone should have the right to do that if they want. And anyone has the right to agree with them or not. If they disagree it doesn't mean they have to persecute the person though. Let them make their changes and believe what they want to believe. Even if it's that those changes were ordered by God. There's no way to prove that it wasn't.

PS-I would also like to point out that this is by far the most civil topic on religion I've ever seen.

Was this post directed towards me or Hamster? I would agree that Christians are much like Mormons in terms of altering the bible, but there are some very important differences between the two. Mormons have made direct revisions to restore it, while the Christians (apart from translations) have added on the new testament because of Jesus death, while still attempting to keep the old testament in it's original text. I think it's important to consider the reasons for altering the bible though, to help determine whether or not it's possible that the revisions could still be considered the word of God. The dead sea scrolls have always been a foundation for Christians (and probably Jews, although I cannot vouch) to show evidence that their bible is being translated directly from the original texts. It helps dispel some evidence that claims the word of God to be badly damaged and changed through time.

Not directed at anyone in particular. Just a general response to what was being discussed. I agree that there are differences to what the Christians did and what the Mormons did with the bible. But my general point is that they should be able to do what they did without another group getting pissed off. It's not like anyone is forcing anyone else to believe in the changes that they made. They made the changes because they believe in them. Anyone who agrees should be able to, and anyone who doesn't should also be able to respectfully disagree.

[ARTgames]

It isn't like that. It's more like some people acknowledging that we don't know and not making assumptions, while others are blinded by the belief that they do know. Atheists are the people that see it as an unknown and use what they do know to try and figure it out. Religious people don't have the will to find out, so instead they just put their faith in whatever prophet or book attempts to give them the answer.

"what they do know" is just a commend shard opinion on what they proceeds the world as. now "what they do know" about the big questions is something "when really we "dont know" as a whole." But to them like Religious people they "call the other person wrong because to them it looks so clear."

And why it looks so clear to one person and not the other is the 2ed part of my post you did not quote. And "making assumptions" and "while others are blinded by the belief " is something that makes up that person and is why "Almost ever person get a different answer" to who they are and do.  

but you can "influence a person into thinking something close to your results."

Try asking your own questions with my post before posting. because most of the time i answered what people said. My post did not say whether religion or Atheists is the way to go but why they do exists.

[Jake]

I think it's kind of silly to argue between faiths. It's all a matter of he said/she said. No one can ever prove that their religion is "right". It is simply right for them. I say live and let live. Be Mormon, Christian, Muslim, Jewish... whatever. So long as you don't tell other people that what they believe is wrong.

Right, I completely agree. Sadly, some of the anti-theists in this topic wouldn't agree with you. I've seen way too many open insults towards religion and anyone who follows it. It's become common to tell people that they're religion is wrong and I've even heard statements of banishing all religion. Then the same people go ahead and complain about religion imposing their beliefs on others. Banishing the free will to believe what you want to believe is about the worst way to obtain peace, and accepting other people's beliefs is the necessary step that we must take.

To be honest, I don't think it's fair to point out any one group when talking about this. Every group is guilty of it to some extent. It depends on the person. There are extremists in any group, and inevitably because of the extent of their belief in their personal point of view, they are going to lash out against people who believe something different. It doesn't matter what they believe in. That's my point.

I was talking about this topic when I singled out anti-theists. I would, of course, agree that it goes both ways in life.

I mean, you're saying that the Mormon religion is accused of altering the Bible when in reality the Christian religion altered or appended the Jewish religious scriptures. It's really not fair for anyone to say they hold the rights to any of that. Sure, they are sacred texts, but over the many many centuries that have past, things have been altered just through translation error alone. If someone came along and says, "You know what, I want to change some of this around, maybe add on a bit here and there... anyone who agrees with me can join me..." So what? Go right ahead. Anyone should have the right to do that if they want. And anyone has the right to agree with them or not. If they disagree it doesn't mean they have to persecute the person though. Let them make their changes and believe what they want to believe. Even if it's that those changes were ordered by God. There's no way to prove that it wasn't.

PS-I would also like to point out that this is by far the most civil topic on religion I've ever seen.

Was this post directed towards me or Hamster? I would agree that Christians are much like Mormons in terms of altering the bible, but there are some very important differences between the two. Mormons have made direct revisions to restore it, while the Christians (apart from translations) have added on the new testament because of Jesus death, while still attempting to keep the old testament in it's original text. I think it's important to consider the reasons for altering the bible though, to help determine whether or not it's possible that the revisions could still be considered the word of God. The dead sea scrolls have always been a foundation for Christians (and probably Jews, although I cannot vouch) to show evidence that their bible is being translated directly from the original texts. It helps dispel some evidence that claims the word of God to be badly damaged and changed through time.

Not directed at anyone in particular. Just a general response to what was being discussed. I agree that there are differences to what the Christians did and what the Mormons did with the bible. But my general point is that they should be able to do what they did without another group getting pissed off. It's not like anyone is forcing anyone else to believe in the changes that they made. They made the changes because they believe in them. Anyone who agrees should be able to, and anyone who doesn't should also be able to respectfully disagree.

Yeah, exactly. Sorry if I didn't address your point directly, I often get off-topic with my posts. Your point is absolutely correct. I personally have not seen that much anger regarding this, but rather sympathy. Christians I know would feel bad for Mormons for not seeing the supposed truth, and I'm sure it goes the other way too. I think this is a much bigger issue in middle-eastern countries where differences in the translation of the Qur'an have led to thousands of deaths, and even Ireland, where the Protestants and Catholics go at it. It's really sickening. I'm sure your post was regarding all of that too, but I felt I should mention it.

[ARTgames]

They made the changes because they believe in them. Anyone who agrees should be able to, and anyone who doesn't should also be able to respectfully disagree.

what is the differences in respectfully disagreeing and disagreeing? Maybe what is respectfully to one culture is not to another. Sorry im getting off your point. :P

[Mystery]

Right, I completely agree. Sadly, some of the anti-theists in this topic wouldn't agree with you. I've seen way too many open insults towards religion and anyone who follows it. It's become common to tell people that they're religion is wrong and I've even heard statements of banishing all religion. Then the same people go ahead and complain about religion imposing their beliefs on others. Banishing the free will to believe what you want to believe is about the worst way to obtain peace, and accepting other people's beliefs is the necessary step that we must take.

I hope that wasn't directed at me.

I never would want to banish religion. That's not the answer. The only problem with religion are the people who use religion as a front and extremists. This does happen with atheism, too, but less often. Take for example, the priests(or whatever they're called)in the Middle East. They openly take advantage of poor Muslims there EVERY DAY. Why do you think there are so many suicide bombers? Yes, Osama Bin Laden helped with that and so did other terrorist groups, I realize. But the 'priests' tell them to do it. The poor Muslims gladly do it, because they think this will direct them to a better life, since they have nothing. They're so desperate, they'll trust ANYONE. All for endless tables of food, wine, and 77 virgins to a man. (Seriously, some people in particular, don't be like your normal selves and say 'OMG 77 VIRGINS FOREVER IN BED I'D KILL MYSELF IT'S WORTH IT LOLOLOL. It's not funny. And I honestly don't give a [Censor] if you would.)THAT'S why they're killing so many people. Because it would be better than their current life to them. The 'priests' are just doing this so they get whatever possessions the poor people have left and their money as well. They don't care about the people. It's sickening. I do realize there are legitimate priests there, though. That's what I applaud. (I wasn't making fun of Islam, just using it as an example)

And atheism, in general, I have seen insulted much more than religion. A good 4/5 of the world believes in a God or reincarnation or an afterlife or multiple gods or SOMETHING. I have been asked 'why in the world I'm an atheist' too many times to count. I am very tolerant, but when I debate, I do tend to sound harsh.

Religion has MANY, MANY more good things to it than bad. Don't get me wrong.

I'm sorry if I did seem harsh, but I am in no way an 'anti-theist.'

And my apologies if it wasn't directed at me.

[Lingus]

Art, I get what you're saying... it would be different if anyone experienced something different than what we can all physically experience. Everyone understands 2+2=4. No one would argue against it. It would also be different if everyone understood that God exists. But that's not the case. The two things are fundamentally different. Believing in something you can see and touch is nothing like believing in something you have no evidence of (ie faith that God exists etc etc). I'm not saying they're wrong, I'm saying they are two entirely different things. It's not fair to compare them. It is true that it's possible that what we experience to be an illusion... but believing that would require MORE faith than accepting that what we see and feel is real. Not to mention, the logical end result in believing that everything is an illusion is to go completely insane.

PS-Respectfully disagree in my opinion is to not shove it in their face or say they are "wrong".

[ARTgames]

But why is there "Believing in something you can see and touch is nothing like believing in something you have no evidence of (ie faith that God exists etc etc). " i answered that in my post.

They do because we don't have what we considered evidence.

"when really we "dont know" as a whole."

"You half to understand there culture, history, commonly accepted behaviors, ect. " This is how anyone answer the belife in something "have no evidence of".

what you are = who you are

if "what you are" is some one who bleaves in god that's because of "who you are". and who you are is made of "what you are" which is made up of a lot of things like "culture, history, commonly accepted behaviors, ect." ( i think, its up to you acceding to my post)

but what makes you "what you are" is also something we dont know everything about. It would involve the meaning of life.

PS-Respectfully disagree in my opinion is to not shove it in their face or say they are "wrong".

oh thats just rude. or what a lot of people would think to be. i do. :P

[Jake]

Right, I completely agree. Sadly, some of the anti-theists in this topic wouldn't agree with you. I've seen way too many open insults towards religion and anyone who follows it. It's become common to tell people that they're religion is wrong and I've even heard statements of banishing all religion. Then the same people go ahead and complain about religion imposing their beliefs on others. Banishing the free will to believe what you want to believe is about the worst way to obtain peace, and accepting other people's beliefs is the necessary step that we must take.

I hope that wasn't directed at me.

I never would want to banish religion. That's not the answer. The only problem with religion are the people who use religion as a front and extremists. This does happen with atheism, too, but less often. Take for example, the priests(or whatever they're called)in the Middle East. They openly take advantage of poor Muslims there EVERY DAY. Why do you think there are so many suicide bombers? Yes, Osama Bin Laden helped with that and so did other terrorist groups, I realize. But the 'priests' tell them to do it. The poor Muslims gladly do it, because they think this will direct them to a better life, since they have nothing. They're so desperate, they'll trust ANYONE. All for endless tables of food, wine, and 77 virgins to a man. (Seriously, some people in particular, don't be like your normal selves and say 'OMG 77 VIRGINS FOREVER IN BED I'D KILL MYSELF IT'S WORTH IT LOLOLOL. It's not funny. And I honestly don't give a [Censor] if you would.)THAT'S why they're killing so many people. Because it would be better than their current life to them. The 'priests' are just doing this so they get whatever possessions the poor people have left and their money as well. They don't care about the people. It's sickening. I do realize there are legitimate priests there, though. That's what I applaud. (I wasn't making fun of Islam, just using it as an example)

And atheism, in general, I have seen insulted much more than religion. A good 4/5 of the world believes in a God or reincarnation or an afterlife or multiple gods or SOMETHING. I have been asked 'why in the world I'm an atheist' too many times to count. I am very tolerant, but when I debate, I do tend to sound harsh.

Religion has MANY, MANY more good things to it than bad. Don't get me wrong.

I'm sorry if I did seem harsh, but I am in no way an 'anti-theist.'

And my apologies if it wasn't directed at me.

I'm feeling a little too sick to express my view points anymore tonight, but I pretty much agree 110% with this post. I have never considered you to be anti-theist, and I apologize if you felt that way.

[NotoriousM4^]

With deepest respect for your beliefs, why is it that you follow Mormonism? I'm only asking this because I am deeply interested in the reason for one's beliefs regarding religion (especially ones that I know little about).

I follow it because I beleive that it will lead me to salvation, I have been happy as long as I've done the things which I beleive are right, even if it's challenging and I can't be perfect, I'm happy, that is something that cannot be described, happiness is what we all, as human beings want, and I know that I have it. It's a feeling that strengthens your faith, the Holy Spirit, he confirms the truth in a way that you can rely on. I've studied the scriptures, and I ask God if they are true, and I have received an answer every time, and that is the only thing we encourage other people to do. We want to bring souls unto Christ.
And the reason I follow mormonism is because I want to return to Christ, with all my loved ones, and be happy for the rest of eternity. All that is required of me is to work with as much effort as I can expend until the end of my days, and though this may seem like alot, it is the least we can do for what Christ suffered for us. We have a fullness of the Gospel, while other Christian churches are incomplete, and they hate us, we are despised by the world, and we endure their persecution, and that makes us stronger.

I have a testimony that these things are true, because they are my life, they are all that I know, and I hope that you will find it useful.

Well, according to you, can't you do all that without still being mormon if everybody is going to be saved anyways?
And, exactly what "wickedness" did these black ancestors supposedly commit. And if your God is so forgiving why is it right for him to punish them because of something their ancestors had done? And if they are black because of what their ancestors did doesn't that make the actual ancestors who committed these acts white? I also don't see how having skin of color is a "curse".

I don't know a whole lot about the matter of color, but I do know that being cursed is a good thing, because it means that you are a strong character that needs greater challanges in order to be equal to all other human beings. And you are not being punished for their mistakes, but your curse is their punishment, because they will look upon their their seed, and feel terrible guilt for what they caused for their descendants, causing them to turn inward on themselves in sorrow, that is the equivalent of hell, it is as much as you knowingly put on yourself witout trying to fix the problem.

But I honestly don't know much about the things which you have asked me, I will have to ask you to allow me some time to study and reflect until I have the answers to your questions.

So your saying black people aren't equal with other human beings? 
:-\ That sounds a tad bit... racist?

[ARTgames]

I hope that wasn't directed at me.

I never would want to banish religion. That's not the answer. The only problem with religion are the people who use religion as a front and extremists.

The rest of your post form what i skimmed over i have a similar opinion of. One of the biggest first talks i had about religion we came to extremists as something that's the main problem most of the time. You can always have too much of something.

But what makes an extremists? They feels what they are doing is right but most of the people (me included) don't.  A lot of are morels are based off life and death pain and happy. The main thing is that what this all means to us dose not always mean the same to them.

And i don't think we will ever share the same opinion 100% about anything because "Now weather or not you bleave in randomness we are all different and will most likely will never get the same results exactly."

[Scotty]

I'd personally like to applaud all who have remained civil in this discussion, as Chaos did earlier.  To explain how impressed I am with this, I use the following example:  I am part of a gaming guild / family who love being together and being so close together with everyone.  We go camping together, we game together, we drink together, yet we have to have an entirely different forum installation for political and religious discussion because a group averaging around the age of late 20's to early 30's get extremely offensive / defensive in conversations much more moot than this one.  To see an open community with the average age of much less be able to take in everyone of all religions and remain civil in a discussion regarding things that a lot of us hold near and dear to us (faith) is utterly amazing.

Well done!

And to add a bit of comic relief, I have a funny story.

Some years ago we had some Mormon girls come round to our barracks rooms trying to do their recruiting.  They were wearing the typical attire that Mormon school-girls wear.  The main girl talking was meh as far as appearances, but her friend was drop dead gorgeous.  One was talking, but my attention was fixed on the other.  Fixed so much that I don't even really recall what they were saying.  When I finally snapped to after an abrupt "Excuse me..."  I looked back at the girl talking and replied with something along the lines of "Oh, I'm sorry, no thank you, have a nice day."  They smiled and I went to shut the door as they turned to go to the next room, but then something clicked.  I swung the door back open and said "Oh, excuse me, I was curious..."  They turned back around and faced me and I said "Aren't I allowed to marry both of you and all your friends if I convert?"  The girl who did all the talking retorted back with something how that isn't allowed anymore, yadayadayada, but her cute friend was standing their smiling.  I almost took them up on their offer!

Now that I probably offended Hamsterpants with that (and for that, please understand that was sarcasm, meant for a good laugh, which others found it to be aftewards), I am going to go eat some num-nums!

[ARTgames]

I'd personally like to applaud all who have remained civil in this discussion, as Chaos did earlier.  To explain how impressed I am with this, I use the following example:  I am part of a gaming guild / family who love being together and being so close together with everyone.  We go camping together, we game together, we drink together, yet we have to have an entirely different forum installation for political and religious discussion because a group averaging around the age of late 20's to early 30's get extremely offensive / defensive in conversations much more moot than this one.  To see an open community with the average age of much less be able to take in everyone of all religions and remain civil in a discussion regarding things that a lot of us hold near and dear to us (faith) is utterly amazing.

If theres anything to learn from this topic its this. Im also vary glad how this has turned out.

off topic:
256 post on this account! WOOOOT! 8 bits down!