Bin Laden is finally dead!!!

[Jake]

Actions in large part define you as a person. You do what you do because of how you think and feel. In Osama's case, we've seen quotes of him condemning every American and asking that we should be killed. Of course he thought he was right - but we as a society deemed him wrong, and ultimately it is up to ourselves to determine what is "good" and "bad".

The action is only half the story. The mindset of the person making the action is absolutely critical if you really want to judge anothers character. Since we very clearly do not know the mindset of Osama Bin laden, to logically judge his character is foolish. You can say he's evil all you want, but whether or not saying that makes any sense at all is a different story. What you've done so far is piece together his negative actions (all of which you've heard from the media) to create what you think is an accurate picture of this guy who you've never talked to, never met, and only heard about negatively from the media since you were a little toddler. I simply ask any reasonable person to judge his actions, not his character, unless you've walked a mile in his shoes and know exactly what he thinks and why.

You believe he was simply misguided, but that is your perception. How is our perception that he is evil any different than the judgement you are making?

For the sake of this discussion, lets say it's a universal truth that the actions Osama committed were wrong. Since what he did was wrong, we can gather that somewhere in his thinking he made a mistake. Instead of assuming why he made this mistake (by calling him evil), I took a more reasonable approach and used the word misguided to sum up a broad number of reasons as to why he did what he did. It's a more humble approach, but still subjective in the fact that I'm assuming there's an error in his thinking. Calling him evil is not factually wrong, but it's down right unreasonable because it assumes a great amount about his mindset compared to the term misguided.

[Cactuscat222]

Actions in large part define you as a person. You do what you do because of how you think and feel. In Osama's case, we've seen quotes of him condemning every American and asking that we should be killed. Of course he thought he was right - but we as a society deemed him wrong, and ultimately it is up to ourselves to determine what is "good" and "bad".

The action is only half the story. The mindset of the person making the action is absolutely critical if you really want to judge anothers character. Since we very clearly do not know the mindset of Osama Bin laden, to logically judge his character is foolish. You can say he's evil all you want, but whether or not saying that makes any sense at all is a different story. What you've done so far is piece together his negative actions (all of which you've heard from the media) to create what you think is an accurate picture of this guy who you've never talked to, never met, and only heard about negatively from the media since you were a little toddler. I simply ask any reasonable person to judge his actions, not his character, unless you've walked a mile in his shoes and know exactly what he thinks and why.

You believe he was simply misguided, but that is your perception. How is our perception that he is evil any different than the judgement you are making?

For the sake of this discussion, lets say it's a universal truth that the actions Osama committed were wrong. Since what he did was wrong, we can gather that somewhere in his thinking he made a mistake. Instead of assuming why he made this mistake (by calling him evil), I took a more reasonable approach and used the word misguided to sum up a broad number of reasons as to why he did what he did. It's a more humble approach, but still subjective in the fact that I'm assuming there's an error in his thinking. Calling him evil is not factually wrong, but it's down right unreasonable because it assumes a great amount about his mindset compared to the term misguided.

Fair enough. Though, I'm not claiming he is evil based on his own mindset - because yes, I'll never know it. However, his actions (according to me and others) were wrong and counter-productive to what we want. As they say, actions speak louder than words, and even if he believed so strongly that he was right and we were the evil ones, we disagreed and decided he was evil, based on the lives that he has ended. I believe that is reasonable.

I try my best to see things from other sides and not judge according to someone's differing opinion, so I definitely see where you are coming from. That being said, it still is my firm belief that his actions were in the wrong and he was committing them for reasons and thoughts that I disagree with and ultimately hurt everyone as a whole. Yes, my knowledge is only from media and I've never known him in person, but if I wasn't allowed to believe anything I read or heard, I wouldn't be anywhere right now, nor understand history.

[Jake]

Fair enough. Though, I'm not claiming he is evil based on his own mindset - because yes, I'll never know it. However, his actions (according to me and others) were wrong and counter-productive to what we want. As they say, actions speak louder than words, and even if he believed so strongly that he was right and we were the evil ones, we disagreed and decided he was evil, based on the lives that he has ended. I believe that is reasonable.

I cringe every time somebody uses the word "evil" to express another person. I personally think it should be saved for fictional books, movies, and video games. The human mind is so much more complex than to try and encompass it with a black and white picture of right and wrong.

I try my best to see things from other sides and not judge according to someone's differing opinion, so I definitely see where you are coming from. That being said, it still is my firm belief that his actions were in the wrong and he was committing them for reasons and thoughts that I disagree with and ultimately hurt everyone as a whole.

This is perfectly fine, and I would agree.

Yes, my knowledge is only from media and I've never known him in person, but if I wasn't allowed to believe anything I read or heard, I wouldn't be anywhere right now, nor understand history.

I'm not saying you should disbelieve everything you hear through the media (although it's important to be weary), but that American TV and radio generally likes to paint a one-sided picture of it's enemies. Characterizing someones entire mindset with a fairytale word based on what you hear through the media is silly.

[Cactuscat222]

Fair enough. Though, I'm not claiming he is evil based on his own mindset - because yes, I'll never know it. However, his actions (according to me and others) were wrong and counter-productive to what we want. As they say, actions speak louder than words, and even if he believed so strongly that he was right and we were the evil ones, we disagreed and decided he was evil, based on the lives that he has ended. I believe that is reasonable.

I cringe every time somebody uses the word "evil" to express another person. I personally think it should be saved for fictional books, movies, and video games. The human mind is so much more complex than to try and encompass it with a black and white picture of right and wrong.

I try my best to see things from other sides and not judge according to someone's differing opinion, so I definitely see where you are coming from. That being said, it still is my firm belief that his actions were in the wrong and he was committing them for reasons and thoughts that I disagree with and ultimately hurt everyone as a whole.

This is perfectly fine, and I would agree.

Yes, my knowledge is only from media and I've never known him in person, but if I wasn't allowed to believe anything I read or heard, I wouldn't be anywhere right now, nor understand history.

I'm not saying you should disbelieve everything you hear through the media (although it's important to be weary), but that American TV and radio generally likes to paint a one-sided picture of it's enemies. Characterizing someones entire mindset with a fairytale word based on what you hear through the media is silly.

Aye, I definitely have a large bias with what I hear. I've been doing my best lately to hear both sides - I've grown up in a very conservative household in a very liberal state and city. (Of course, those aren't all the sides, just some of the main one that deal with our politics) It's been interesting, and I've been in heavy debate myself over things like this lately.

The entire idea behind what the word means and represents when used is an entirely different can of worms. I can definitely see and even agree with you that it should not be a word to be used lightly. Still, I don't believe the human mind is beyond the ability to be evil. If we can fathom it within fictional settings and stories, I think it is entirely possibly for a person to be genuinely evil - and since we can distinguish genuine evil in a book, we could do the same in life.
Morality may be a very difficult subject with millions of shades of grey, but that shouldn't mean there aren't times when it is black and white. Still though, evil isn't the same to everyone and I probably shouldn't use it to describe him as you suggest. However, I still believe the effects of his actions can be considered evil, in my sense of the word.

[CherryPie]

Chaos found this on 4chan:

"Osama should never have used his real address on PSN"

Made me lol! :D

[darkflash]

Osama's last facebook staus: BRB someone at the door.

lmao

[DarkTrinity]

Thought I would share these:

[Lingus]

I think these quotes sum up this discussion rather well.

Of course he thought he was right - but we as a society deemed him wrong, and ultimately it is up to ourselves to determine what is "good" and "bad".

Entropy happens, we are all different. And that's why the world is the way it is.

Of course he thought he was right - but we as a society deemed him wrong, and ultimately it is up to ourselves to determine what is "good" and "bad".

For the sake of this discussion, lets say it's a universal truth that the actions Osama committed were wrong. Since what he did was wrong, we can gather that somewhere in his thinking he made a mistake. Instead of assuming why he made this mistake (by calling him evil), I took a more reasonable approach and used the word misguided to sum up a broad number of reasons as to why he did what he did. It's a more humble approach, but still subjective in the fact that I'm assuming there's an error in his thinking. Calling him evil is not factually wrong, but it's down right unreasonable because it assumes a great amount about his mindset compared to the term misguided.

I get what you're saying here Jake. And it makes sense. I'm not one to lightly pass judgement, and I do consider the thought process behind an action to have relevence on how a person should be judged. At this point I kind of feel that you are playing semantics a bit (I still don't think misguided is the right term because it implies that he was not responsible for his actions on some level), but I understand your point of view for the most part and I respect it.

[krele]

I apologize in advance, this is not meant to be offensive to your country and its people in any way, nor is it meant to offend anyone of any nation, religion, or beliefs. If you fail to notice, this is only my own, personal belief, put a little bluntly. Please consider that fact before replying.
________________________

You're too naive. I find it really odd, how easy it is for your government to make you believe anything they want. Imagine a scenario where your government tells you that afterlife really exists, and how you should all just kill yourself and meet up there - for America! I think most of you would believe it, but for those that don't, a cheaply made video feed of "God talking to Obama" would do the job. I am sure I know much more about this "war" you're having than any of you, and I'm not even American. You really never noticed the possibility of Laden not even existing in the first place? What if he's a work of fiction created by your government, planned to be used for other means? Why did your government find it necessary to even kill Laden if terroristic "attacks" stopped since 2001.? Did any of you notice the recent attention another "terroristic leader" caught by the media? I'm talking about Gaddafi. It's also weird, how much media can control us... Look at this, and then remember what you've heard about Gaddafi on your last news report or newspapers. I'm not telling you to not believe your government or the media, all I'm saying is that you should believe yourself, think a bit out of the box, and try to fit every possibility into the current situation. Oh, and use a bit of common sense too.

He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.
________________________

Evil is every deed done that collides with human inner moral code. No matter what - killing is plainly evil. Both your soldiers, your government, the terrorists and their leaders are evil. The goal doesn't exculpate the means.

[Tidus]

He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.

Pretty sure it is much easier to film a man behind hanged then it is an entire mission in which 40 men came down to invade the house being followed with a fire fight....

Since you gave you're opinion on this, I'll go ahead and give mine on this matter and say I feel that everything you said above this is completely ridiculous. You are apart of the multiple other people who just cannot accept things for what it is, and try to find a scam behind everything. Dumping his body at sea was a very smart tactic, and, to me, the best possible option. If we took his body to America, they would no doubt come attempt to reclaim it. If they left it there or gave it to Iran or something, they would make a shrine for it and continue to praise him....Again to the Sadam Hussein mention...this was a completely different circumstance. #1, we actually tried Hussein and then (#2) we sent him back to Iraq, who were the ones who hanged him and took the videos. Another thing proving that Osama is dead is the Al-Qaeda response to him being dead...I guess we have them behind it too? Maybe they are actually our allies in messing with the American population for kicks?...I doubt it...The SEALs who were there did have cameras in their helmets and did film it, but they only released pictures of the aftermath, not the actual video. They have no want to show the video of the secret mission, and I can see no reason why they should be forced to.

[Forum]

Now their depicting whether or not he used his wife as a shield...ugh

[Mr Pwnage]

He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.

Pretty sure it is much easier to film a man behind hanged then it is an entire mission in which 40 men came down to invade the house being followed with a fire fight....

Since you gave you're opinion on this, I'll go ahead and give mine on this matter and say I feel that everything you said above this is completely ridiculous. You are apart of the multiple other people who just cannot accept things for what it is, and try to find a scam behind everything. Dumping his body at sea was a very smart tactic, and, to me, the best possible option. If we took his body to America, they would no doubt come attempt to reclaim it. If they left it there or to Iran or something, they would make a shrine for it and continue to praise him....Again to the Sadam Hussein mention...this was a completely different circumstance. #1, we actually tried Hussein and then (#2) we sent him back to Iraq, who were the ones who hanged him and took the videos. Another thing proving that Osama is dead is the Al-Qaeda response to him being dead...I guess we have them behind it too? Maybe they are actually our allies in messing with the American population for kicks?...I doubt it...The SEALs who were there did have camera's in their helmets and did film it, but they only released pictures of the aftermath, not the actual video. They have no want to show the video of the secret mission, and I can see no reason why they should be forced to.

Very well said Tidus.

Krele your blinded by your own ignorance and superstitions so much that you completely evade logic, leading you to believe in your blunt remarks. Your disclaimer about being offensive is irrelevant, because your being completely ridiculous. Your analogy about the American government telling us to kill ourselves and us following suit only further proves your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about America. Fact of the matter is, we are probably the most free thinking and rebellious people the world has to offer. Why? Because our country founded itself on a series of freedoms and ideas never considered by other nations and we have since then passed more freedoms. Speak for yourself, don't generalize Americans collectively, because quite frankly you have absolutely no basis for your argument other than your own superstition. Don't interpret this as a way of me saying that our government is free of corruption and perfect, that would be the farthest thing from true. We all have our political agreements and disagreements within our own country. But even further than truth than that, would be to declare all Americans hypnotized by it's dishonest government. I am proud to be part of a legacy of free people whom don't have such narrow-minded ideas such as yourself.

[Mystery]

He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.

Pretty sure it is much easier to film a man behind hanged then it is an entire mission in which 40 men came down to invade the house being followed with a fire fight....

Since you gave you're opinion on this, I'll go ahead and give mine on this matter and say I feel that everything you said above this is completely ridiculous. You are apart of the multiple other people who just cannot accept things for what it is, and try to find a scam behind everything. Dumping his body at sea was a very smart tactic, and, to me, the best possible option. If we took his body to America, they would no doubt come attempt to reclaim it. If they left it there or to Iran or something, they would make a shrine for it and continue to praise him....Again to the Sadam Hussein mention...this was a completely different circumstance. #1, we actually tried Hussein and then (#2) we sent him back to Iraq, who were the ones who hanged him and took the videos. Another thing proving that Osama is dead is the Al-Qaeda response to him being dead...I guess we have them behind it too? Maybe they are actually our allies in messing with the American population for kicks?...I doubt it...The SEALs who were there did have camera's in their helmets and did film it, but they only released pictures of the aftermath, not the actual video. They have no want to show the video of the secret mission, and I can see no reason why they should be forced to.

Very well said Tidus.

Krele your blinded by your own ignorance and superstitions so much that you completely evade logic, leading you to believe in your blunt remarks. Your disclaimer about being offensive is irrelevant, because your being completely ridiculous. Your analogy about the American government telling us to kill ourselves and us following suit only further proves your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about America. Fact of the matter is, we are probably the most free thinking and rebellious people the world has to offer. Why? Because our country founded itself on a series of freedoms and ideas never considered by other nations and we have since then passed more freedoms. Speak for yourself, don't generalize Americans collectively, because quite frankly you have absolutely no basis for your argument other than your own superstition. Don't interpret this as a way of me saying that our government is free of corruption and perfect, that would be the farthest thing from true. We all have our political agreements and disagreements within our own country. But even further than truth than that, would be to declare all Americans hypnotized by it's dishonest government. I am proud to be part of a legacy of free people whom don't have such narrow-minded ideas such as yourself.

While I do not agree with krele's standpoint on this matter(the vast majority of it pertaining to his view that Osama bin Laden was part of a government conspiracy, not the overwhelming influence of the media here, I wholeheartedly agree with that), I have to say that paragraph is a load of bollocks, particularly the bolded sections.

This is coming from an American, mind you.

[Mr Pwnage]

He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.

Pretty sure it is much easier to film a man behind hanged then it is an entire mission in which 40 men came down to invade the house being followed with a fire fight....

Since you gave you're opinion on this, I'll go ahead and give mine on this matter and say I feel that everything you said above this is completely ridiculous. You are apart of the multiple other people who just cannot accept things for what it is, and try to find a scam behind everything. Dumping his body at sea was a very smart tactic, and, to me, the best possible option. If we took his body to America, they would no doubt come attempt to reclaim it. If they left it there or to Iran or something, they would make a shrine for it and continue to praise him....Again to the Sadam Hussein mention...this was a completely different circumstance. #1, we actually tried Hussein and then (#2) we sent him back to Iraq, who were the ones who hanged him and took the videos. Another thing proving that Osama is dead is the Al-Qaeda response to him being dead...I guess we have them behind it too? Maybe they are actually our allies in messing with the American population for kicks?...I doubt it...The SEALs who were there did have camera's in their helmets and did film it, but they only released pictures of the aftermath, not the actual video. They have no want to show the video of the secret mission, and I can see no reason why they should be forced to.

Very well said Tidus.

Krele your blinded by your own ignorance and superstitions so much that you completely evade logic, leading you to believe in your blunt remarks. Your disclaimer about being offensive is irrelevant, because your being completely ridiculous. Your analogy about the American government telling us to kill ourselves and us following suit only further proves your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about America. Fact of the matter is, we are probably the most free thinking and rebellious people the world has to offer. Why? Because our country founded itself on a series of freedoms and ideas never considered by other nations and we have since then passed more freedoms. Speak for yourself, don't generalize Americans collectively, because quite frankly you have absolutely no basis for your argument other than your own superstition. Don't interpret this as a way of me saying that our government is free of corruption and perfect, that would be the farthest thing from true. We all have our political agreements and disagreements within our own country. But even further than truth than that, would be to declare all Americans hypnotized by it's dishonest government. I am proud to be part of a legacy of free people whom don't have such narrow-minded ideas such as yourself.

While I do not agree with krele's standpoint on this matter(the vast majority of it pertaining to his view that Osama bin Laden was part of a government conspiracy, not the overwhelming influence of the media here, I wholeheartedly agree with that), I have to say that paragraph is a load of bollocks, particularly the bolded sections.

This is coming from an American, mind you.

Care to elaborate why?

I completely understand if you are thrown off about me positively speaking about our country as if I am oblivious to the fact that there are many uneducated and ignorant people residing in it. I am rather highlighting that the majority of our well-educated Americans (which we do have many) have the ability to see past these sorts of superstitions and evaluate the stories in the media from a rational viewpoint. (Also realize if this is what you were dwelling on, than you have completely missed my point entirely.)

So with that said, where is the basis for the overwhelming amount of "bollocks"?

[Tidus]

snip

snip

Very well said Tidus.

Krele your blinded by your own ignorance and superstitions so much that you completely evade logic, leading you to believe in your blunt remarks. Your disclaimer about being offensive is irrelevant, because your being completely ridiculous. Your analogy about the American government telling us to kill ourselves and us following suit only further proves your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about America. Fact of the matter is, we are probably the most free thinking and rebellious people the world has to offer. Why? Because our country founded itself on a series of freedoms and ideas never considered by other nations and we have since then passed more freedoms. Speak for yourself, don't generalize Americans collectively, because quite frankly you have absolutely no basis for your argument other than your own superstition. Don't interpret this as a way of me saying that our government is free of corruption and perfect, that would be the farthest thing from true. We all have our political agreements and disagreements within our own country. But even further than truth than that, would be to declare all Americans hypnotized by it's dishonest government. I am proud to be part of a legacy of free people whom don't have such narrow-minded ideas such as yourself.

While I do not agree with krele's standpoint on this matter(the vast majority of it pertaining to his view that Osama bin Laden was part of a government conspiracy, not the overwhelming influence of the media here, I wholeheartedly agree with that), I have to say that paragraph is a load of bollocks, particularly the bolded sections.

This is coming from an American, mind you.

Can you please give some information to back this up, because I don't fully understand what you mean.

Americans are definitely the most free thinking and rebellious people in the world. There are not many places in the world where you can believe what ever the hell you want and be whatever type of person you want to be. Are there assholes in America who try to put people down for certain beliefs, of course!, but as a whole, we normally look down upon such citizens, and have such things as hate crimes, which many places do not have. Just as an example, lets look at the idiot who felt it was a good idea to burn the Quran. The general population of the US thought of him as a complete, prejudiced idiot, except for his few followers. It's also completely crazy to say that Americans are not rebellious, as we are more then likely too rebellious for our own good. For the government, is there a whole lot of shit we do not/never will know about, of course, impossible to find a government that doesn't hide shit from its citizens. However, a majority of this stuff is held from out knowledge for our own good. There are some things the general population simply doesn't need to know, and will live better, happier lives not knowing.

Anyway, my two cents on the matter, I wrote all this while Pwnage wrote his (which seemed to condense everything I said), but I don't want to not post it, since I took the time to write it haha