For shame, Ubisoft.

[Lingus]

I completely agree with you, and that's what I'm doing and I hope others are doing... but the reality is that a lot of people are going to buy this game.

No, that's what you think the reality is. Do you have PC sails numbers to justify that?

http://www.product-reviews.net/2009/11/24/assassins-creed-ii-ubisoft-unveil-detailed-sales-figures/

Actually doing better than I even thought. So yes, it is futile. People will buy the game regardless of how much they might complain about the DRM. I know this is true even before looking at the above article because want instant gratification. Most people are not going to abstain from something they want just to prove a point. If they want to play AC2, they will buy it. True, the DRM is annoying, but at least they get to play the game.

And no, I will not crack the game. But I should point out that it's not only because I'm trying to prove a point. I just don't want to waste the time or effort to look up the crack and implement it. Besides, buying the game off ebay still indirectly adds to their sales. That's how retail sales work. They sell so many units to a retail company and if all of those units sell they get more. The more sales the retail store makes, the more sales the game company will make. Same thing with ebay purchases.

[ARTgames]

I completely agree with you, and that's what I'm doing and I hope others are doing... but the reality is that a lot of people are going to buy this game.

No, that's what you think the reality is. Do you have PC sails numbers to justify that?

http://www.product-reviews.net/2009/11/24/assassins-creed-ii-ubisoft-unveil-detailed-sales-figures/

Actually doing better than I even thought. So yes, it is futile.

Do you have PC sails numbers to justify that?

Its funny how no ware in that article they mention the pc sails. The pc game was not even out when that article was posted....

And no, I will not crack the game. But I should point out that it's not only because I'm trying to prove a point.

What point and to who?

Besides, buying the game off ebay still indirectly adds to their sales. That's how retail sales work. They sell so many units to a retail company and if all of those units sell they get more. The more sales the retail store makes, the more sales the game company will make. Same thing with ebay purchases.

Well no. Your buying the game off some one who already did the deed. You buying the game off some one else is not making them any more money. The used market is not the same as the retail.

I'm going to say i quite with this subject for now. We are going no ware. I'm not mad at you just really wired out. And i think i should step away.

[Lingus]

Its funny how no ware in that article they mention the pc sails. The pc game was not even out when that article was posted....

That's a good point, but they don't mention it anywhere in any article that talks about sales. They don't make the distinction between 360 and PC. Which only goes to prove my earlier point (as well as this one). They aren't going to look at PC versus 360 sales when making a determination of the game's success. All they care about is how many total sales because in the end they only care about total profits. And if the article I linked to is an indication then they are going to make plenty of money.

And no, I will not crack the game. But I should point out that it's not only because I'm trying to prove a point.

What point and to who?

The point I've been making this whole time. That the DRM sucks and the price is too high. And it would be to Ubisoft. But as I metioned, it's not because of this, and I don't really think I'm making any kind of point by not buying the game anyways.

Besides, buying the game off ebay still indirectly adds to their sales. That's how retail sales work. They sell so many units to a retail company and if all of those units sell they get more. The more sales the retail store makes, the more sales the game company will make. Same thing with ebay purchases.

Well no. Your buying the game off some one who already did the deed. You buying the game off some one else is not making them any more money. The used market is not the same as the retail.

Ah used. I thought you meant from a retail Ebay store. Are people already selling used copies of the game? Why? To get their money back? Wouldn't they just return it to the store? I would rather see them return it because then that goes back to the retail store which then eventually (if the returns are high enough and they don't just resell the returns) get back to Ubisoft. And if they are doing it to make money (buying and reselling games) then it's the same as a retail store. The more units they sell, the more units they buy to resell. That's how sales numbers work.


But yes, you're right. We're going in circles here. This is a topic that agitates me a bit. I'm not trying to take it out on you specifically or anything.

[Seifer]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but AC2 was cracked successfully after it's release. Which means me, as a PC gamer will NEVER buy the retail copy, simply because it will be worse than the cracked version.

[ARTgames]

edit: made post in not best of mind.

[Lucifer]

You're confusing me Art. What you're saying is, theres two choices. A. Support DRM and Ubisoft's decision to use it by buying their game. (Because buying their game in any way is telling them they can still make money off their decision, and they can continue to.) B. Don't support them, and don't buy the game. But then you suggest playing it at a friend's house? Would you mind explaining to me the difference between playing a game at a friend's house and downloading it?

*edit*
Oh, you don't have to respond, I didn't notice you edited your post.

[ARTgames]

That post was not well made. (my old one) But ill defend some of it.

You're confusing me Art. What you're saying is, theres two choices. A. Support DRM and Ubisoft's decision to use it by buying their game. (Because buying their game in any way is telling them they can still make money off their decision, and they can continue to.) B. Don't support them, and don't buy the game.

At no point did i say support DRM. I even said if you do any of those things tell Ubisoft you hate there drm. Its just an assumption you made and others here that buying the game = Support DRM. (which is debatable its self)

I rather buy a game I like then take it for ever just because i don't like something about it. But i know you all don't feel that way so i suggested the others. Also i had more than 2 choices. You forgot about the "get the game used and crack it."

But then you suggest playing it at a friend's house? Would you mind explaining to me the difference between playing a game at a friend's house and downloading it?

Simple. Going to a friends house is different from downloading it because only one person can use the game at a time. Its also not illegal.

Its ok, i did take away the post probably before you got done reading it threw. I'm sorry.

[Lucifer]

As I said, buying their game is telling them what they're doing is fine. Big companies like Ubisoft won't give a flying rabbit shit about you sending them an email about how you dislike their methods. You bought their product, and that's all that matters. Your flawless "Getting the game and cracking it" doesn't mean shat to Ubisoft, as they have no idea you're even cracking it. In the end, all you're doing by purchasing their product, is telling them they can continue to use DRM and you'll still pay for it.

*edit*

Simple. Going to a friends house is different from downloading it because only one person can use the game at a time. Its also not illegal.

Isn't the point of DRM to stop Piracy? To stop loosing potential sales? To stop people from using your product without purchasing it? How is it any different if I let 100 people come into my house and play a game, then them all downloading it? I don't see how only being able to play it one at a time matters at all. It also confuses me how you think cracking the DRM off their game isn't illegal o.O.

[ARTgames]

As I said, buying their game is telling them what they're doing is fine. Big companies like Ubisoft won't give a flying rabbit shit about you sending them an email about how you dislike their methods. You bought their product, and that's all that matters. Your flawless "Getting the game and cracking it" doesn't mean shat to Ubisoft, as they have no idea you're even cracking it. In the end, all you're doing by purchasing their product, is telling them they can continue to use DRM and you'll still pay for it.

Developing DRM cost them something. These DRM programmers/servers are not free. If they can see people will buy there games maybe they wont take the time to keep developing it. Maybe even take take it off there games to come.

It also confuses me how you think cracking the DRM off their game isn't illegal o.O.

Your splitting hairs here. But ill still explain:

It is true that technically it is illegal to break there DRM. Thats is 100% true. But its debatable, like so:
The point of the DRM is to keep you from giving the game to other people. If you get your game and break the DRM for you self i don't see anything wrong with that.

To me downloading a game you like without paying is much worse than getting the by game legal means and breaking the DRM for your own use. Fair?

How is it any different if I let 100 people come into my house and play a game, then them all downloading it?

Do you? Can 100 people play the game at the same time at your house? I really want you to think about this part of the agument. Your getting weird like ling.

I want you to explain to me how using something at a friends is the same as stealing. No matter how you look at it downloading a game without paying is stealing. I dont see how using the game at a firends is stealing.

Isn't the point of DRM to stop Piracy? To stop loosing potential sales? To stop people from using your product without purchasing it?

Its to stop people form copying it not from using it.

DRM technologies attempt to control use of digital media by preventing access, copying or conversion to other formats by end users.

Using my buds games is not breaking the "preventing access, copying or conversion to other formats by end users.".

[Lucifer]

Why does the fact that we wouldn't be able to play the game at the same time matter? Especially for a single player game, once you beat it, you're basically done with it. I argue that letting your friend play the entire game at your house is the same as them downloading it because it has the same effect. The company is still loosing the potential sale, and your friend is still using the product without having to pay for it. The point of DRM is to keep you from giving the game to other people, as you say. Companies want you and your friends to buy the game separately, hence the use of CD Keys.

[ARTgames]

I'm just going to say that i do agree with you that if you use some ones game it can make you less or more inclined to buying it. But not any more or less than piracy does. (I think that's what your saying Lucifer)

But i do feel sharing your copy with thousands of people on the internet is diffrent from sharing your copy with a small number of friends.  Which is why i felt its wrong to download and not wrong to use a buds.

I do agree 1 pirated game does not always equal 1 lost sail. But i don't think you should pirate if you just want the game without paying even if you can buy it.

I also feel you should not pirate a game if you don't like its DRM but you like the game. Or if a game has anything you don't like on it, that does not give you the right to steal it. I feel you should pay for a legal copy for it but break its DRM. But we went over that already. :P

I should have said that insted of what i did in my last posts.

[Lingus]

At no point did i say support DRM. I even said if you do any of those things tell Ubisoft you hate there drm. Its just an assumption you made and others here that buying the game = Support DRM. (which is debatable its self)

As I said, buying their game is telling them what they're doing is fine. Big companies like Ubisoft won't give a flying rabbit shit about you sending them an email about how you dislike their methods. You bought their product, and that's all that matters. Your flawless "Getting the game and cracking it" doesn't mean shat to Ubisoft, as they have no idea you're even cracking it. In the end, all you're doing by purchasing their product, is telling them they can continue to use DRM and you'll still pay for it.

Developing DRM cost them something. These DRM programmers/servers are not free. If they can see people will buy there games maybe they wont take the time to keep developing it. Maybe even take take it off there games to come.

I'm sorry Art, but your arguments are just not valid. What Luc is saying is true. By giving the company money for a game that includes this DRM, you are in effect telling them that you are willing to give them money for the product. In other words, you support the game and all of its features. If there was an aspect of the product you did not like, you would not have bought the game... You might be saying, "Well, I don't like the DRM but I wanted the game anyways. So I don't really support the DRM." But, to Ubisoft that doesn't matter. In the end, the only thing that matters to them is the sales. They made a product, and it is selling. That tells them the product they made is good and they probably don't have to change it. The only thing that will change their mind is if their sales drop.

As I said, buying their game is telling them what they're doing is fine. Big companies like Ubisoft won't give a flying rabbit shit about you sending them an email about how you dislike their methods. You bought their product, and that's all that matters. Your flawless "Getting the game and cracking it" doesn't mean shat to Ubisoft, as they have no idea you're even cracking it. In the end, all you're doing by purchasing their product, is telling them they can continue to use DRM and you'll still pay for it.

Developing DRM cost them something. These DRM programmers/servers are not free. If they can see people will buy there games maybe they wont take the time to keep developing it. Maybe even take take it off there games to come.

It also confuses me how you think cracking the DRM off their game isn't illegal o.O.

Your splitting hairs here. But ill still explain:

It is true that technically it is illegal to break there DRM. Thats is 100% true. But its debatable, like so:
The point of the DRM is to keep you from giving the game to other people. If you get your game and break the DRM for you self i don't see anything wrong with that.

To me downloading a game you like without paying is much worse than getting the by game legal means and breaking the DRM for your own use. Fair?

How is it any different if I let 100 people come into my house and play a game, then them all downloading it?

Do you? Can 100 people play the game at the same time at your house? I really want you to think about this part of the agument. Your getting weird like ling.

It's interesting, because my friend who is also against pirating says the same thing about this topic. He will let me play through a whole game at his house and I never have to buy the game. So in other words, he just removed any chance of me buying the game... Yet he's against piracy. Of course, I can see his logic. He knows I won't buy the game (these are always games which are exclusive to console, which he knows I will never get because I can't afford a console). And, at the same time, I think in some cases, he feels that if I play through the game I may even be inclined to purchase it because I had the chance to play it. If I get hooked on the game and really enjoy it, I will want to play it more and potentially to the point of buying a console and the game (though this is less likely).

And Art, what do you mean by "Weird like ling"? You think I'm being weird because I'm arguing against your points? Why? Am I not allowed to have my own opinion on something? I feel we are all having a rather rational discussion on the topic at hand. So I don't really see how anyone is getting "weird."

[ARTgames]

Ling i think you should read my last post before this one. My views were changed from the post you quoted. That post you quoted i was not really being that rational at that time. Chaos helped me there on msn. But for anything else we can agree to disagree.

Also for that "wired like ling" was just a joke. I was trying to end that post like a past one but word it for Lucifer. No hard feelings man. Sorry i sounded that way.

[LeGuy]

I would like to contribute by pointing out that the publishing companies are not neccesarily selling the experience of playing a game. What they are selling is one tangible disk with one copy of the game's data. When a friend comes over to your house and plays your game, they are enjoying the exact same copy of legally acquired data that you do.

A similar example would be standing outside a concert that you have not purchased tickets for. One might say this is like pirating, because you are enjoying the same music for free that people have paid money for. However, I would disagree - the concert people are not selling music. They are selling the rights to sit in one of their seats over the course of one 2 hour performance at their facilities.

You're not automatically charged every time you hear a song being played in public. You cannot charge people for the concept of entertainment itself, but you can charge them for a physically existing object (television, football, etc.) that can be used a source of entertainment.

That's what I think the difference between pirating and simply sharing something with your friends is. When you play Super Mario 64 at a friend's house, you are, with consent of the owner, sharing in the entertainment of the exact same tangible game cartidge and copy of game data that your friend has legal rights to. When you download some game illegally off of the internet, you are enjoying a different copy of the game data that you have not purchased the legal rights to.

Just some of my insight on the matter, in any case.

[ARTgames]

That is fair to bring up. Thank you.